Sally (00:04.28)
Hello.
Emma (00:05.32)
Hello. Hi, Sal. Welcome to the pod. I'm so happy that we're finally doing this. Yay. So, okay, we've known each other for, gosh, since the beginning of high school. So I think that's 22 years now, which is insane.
Sally (00:10.56)
I'm so excited.
Emma (00:21.8)
And I have had the privilege of seeing you through so many different seasons of life and through every season of your career from getting out of college and being the early days as a social media manager and like sharing a bedroom and a closet with your now husband and just living that like fresh out of college life to really figuring out how to pivot and work your way up to becoming a strategy director and now to running your own.
freelance brand strategy consultancy. So it has been amazing. And when I first dreamed up this podcast to tell these real and messy and kind of behind the scenes stories of women who've pivoted or redesigned their careers and redefined success, you were obviously one of the very.
first people that I thought about because I think that you've done it so beautifully and with such integrity and authenticity and I know that so many of the listeners are going to see themselves in your story. So super excited to have you on.
Sally (01:22.382)
That was such a beautiful intro. Thank you. I can't wait to be here. I'm proud of you too.
Emma (01:24.232)
Best friends. Okay, so let's start at the beginning. And when I say the beginning, I want to go back to even before I knew you. So tell me a little bit like who is little Sally? What were you like as a kid? And what did you dream about being when you were growing up?
Sally (01:46.378)
Okay, little Sally. Man, she was very rambunctious. I think she gave zero Fs. Can I swear? Okay, I think she gave zero fucks from an early age. Still don't. She was a bit unfocused. I don't think in a bad way. Some of my school teachers would say.
Emma (01:58.748)
You can swear.
Still don't.
Sally (02:14.313)
Maybe so. She was a chatterbox. And I'm not gonna lie, I don't think I ever had a dream about being anything when I wanted to grow up or like when I grew up. I don't think I had a dream about what I wanted to be when I grew up because I've always sort of stayed in the age that I'm in. I never remember making any drawings or writing any poems or thinking any thing about career ambitions.
Apparently one year for a camp survey that I had to fill out every year to see which tent that I would be put in, I wrote that I didn't want to be a dead singer because I thought that if I was in entertainment I would die of a drug overdose.
Emma (03:00.744)
So you're like, don't want to be Amy Winehouse. I don't want to die when I'm 27.
Sally (03:05.293)
I like, don't want to be Amy Winehouse, I just want to live in camp forever. So yeah, I think that's who I was.
Emma (03:09.68)
Hahaha
Well, it's so funny hearing you say those characteristics, because I think so many are so true of you still today. And it sounds like you were very much just living in the present, which I think is one of your best qualities, where you're not living too far in the future and being a master planner living really far out. Would you say that that's true?
Sally (03:34.325)
That is very accurate, yes.
Emma (03:36.902)
Okay, so looking back now, what innate gifts or quirks or traits do you feel are connected to what you do today? Like what do you see now looking in the rear view that shines through?
Sally (03:51.693)
that's a good question.
I've always been a people person, as I expressed. So I think that is probably my strongest or loudest character trait. And what I do today is completely surrounded by people, be it people that I'm working with, like working for, working with as clients or peers or people within the work environment.
I do a lot of research, like qualitative research, where I'm actually interviewing people within focus groups and learning about their lives. And then I do a lot of desk research. Like my job is basically about understanding what makes people tick and how they think about things and how they buy things. So whether I'm researching people or working with people or just talking to people in the kitchen, in an office that I'm working in, I'm always kind of surrounded and
surrounded by and thinking about human interaction.
Emma (05:02.514)
Hmm. That's so interesting. And it sounds like not only being good with people, but being curious about people and what makes them tick and those types of interactions. that's kind of both of those are these innate qualities that feel easy for you to double down on and give you energy and are a core to what makes you successful today.
Sally (05:09.634)
Yeah.
Sally (05:19.638)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's interesting because you were one of the people that actually pointed this out to me. I remember we were on a walk in London. I remember walking along the river and you were talking about, what is it called? The like the quality that's easy to you, but not easy to anyone else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your zone of genius. So you were talking about your zone of genius and how that's something that
Emma (05:41.128)
Your zone of genius.
Sally (05:49.193)
You don't even understand that you're good at it because it comes so naturally to you. Pause. Can you hear the... Can you hear that?
Emma (05:58.106)
I can, but it's fine, we could go through it. No. But maybe just start at the beginning of that little story. It's fine if there's a siren in the background.
Sally (06:00.161)
You want me to put in headphones? Okay.
Sally (06:10.239)
Okay, so I'm starting again. This reminds me of when we went on a walk in London together and you were telling me about the concept of Zone of Genius and what that means is that you have some qualities and characteristics and skills that just feel so easy to you that you don't even understand sometimes.
that those are the qualities and characteristics and skills that are something to be utilized, right? And so I've always been a people person and I had belief for a long time that people hired me simply because they liked working with me and they liked my personality when in reality, hopefully they liked me and my personality, but also the way that I think is very...
people first, empathy first, like human instinct first, I can read people quite easily, whether it's how they're expressing themselves, like on a screen within an article to actually having a face-to-face interaction with someone in a room, like in a focus group. So yeah.
Emma (07:24.242)
I mean, it's so interesting to me because I feel like for a lot of people whose zone of genius is what you're describing, like people, empathy, being able to think the way they think, a lot of people write that off as being like not a real skill or a real talent or something that people would pay them for. But yet you've built a career around it. And like you said, yes, it's not only because people like to work with you, but because you're really able to
Sally (07:41.228)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emma (07:54.161)
think the way that they think and, you know, run better creative and campaigns and strategy based on that. So I think it's so amazing that you've found this career that does so much fit in your zone of genius, which to me, you've always been someone. I mean, from really early on, like you started out of college at an ad agency, right? And you've remained in that same career path, granted different roles and iterations of it. But like you're one of the few people I know, like out of college, basically,
Sally (08:07.359)
Yeah.
Emma (08:24.088)
knew what they wanted to do to some extent and has found passion and excitement and continued learning doing that. So when you made that first decision out of college to go to an ad agency, were you strategic enough to be like, okay, I'm doubling down on these people skills or zone of genius or like what led you to go into that path initially?
Sally (08:38.944)
Right.
Sally (08:43.786)
my gosh. LOL no. Not at all. Again, not with the future, the future thinking necessarily. So I actually did not start, my first job was not at an ad agency out of college. My first job was at a startup, like a gaming for non, for charity startup. Ran by these two guys that were three years older than me. And I remember I had the decision of
Emma (08:47.111)
Hahaha!
Emma (09:01.298)
Okay.
Sally (09:14.044)
working with them in an internship or going to the San Francisco Chronicle to work in their ad sales team for the newspaper. And the first one, the former, just seemed more fun. So again, I think I've always been about fun and enjoying work. And that at the time just I
I'm going to sound like I'm not very career ambitious. I swear that I am, but that was what was in front of me. And it seemed I just kind of went with my gut. Newspapers dying, obviously, but I it felt good. It felt interesting. It felt creative. So that's what I decided to do. The startup did not. Yeah.
Emma (10:03.74)
Well, I just want to touch on that because it's so interesting to me. So I do think that now that you're saying this, it's so clear that you have always been guided and gone towards what feels fun, what feels energizing, what feels interesting, what feels creative, and more so than like, what is the quote unquote like,
Sally (10:20.928)
Yeah.
Emma (10:27.186)
perfect role or what's expected of you or what traditional success looks like. It sounds like you were never really oriented towards that. You were more oriented towards what felt good, what felt joyful.
Sally (10:39.68)
Yeah.
Emma (10:40.418)
in coaching terminology, that's being focused on intrinsic motivation, things like joy and creativity and collaboration and creativity and all of that versus extrinsic motivation, is, you know, external achievement and validation and money and all of the things you get by doing the work. So it sounds like from a very early age, you were just intrinsically motivated and that has allowed you to kind of stay in alignment and iterate in a way that has allowed your career to keep feeling
Sally (10:58.87)
Yeah.
Emma (11:10.423)
Would you say that that's true?
Sally (11:13.088)
Yeah, I mean, you made it sound way better than it's felt at certain points in my career. But yes, I agree. think I make I make decisions very heart based. So starting from my first job out of college, I yeah, I think so. I mean, I had to live at home for a year, maybe longer if I had gone to the Chronicle and made more money in ad sales. But
It was a really interesting experience in my life and a fun thing to do, you know, right out of college.
Emma (11:48.968)
So how did you then get from this startup to an ad agency?
Sally (11:53.705)
Yeah, so I had taken an advertising class in college and I majored in communication studies, which is basically the major that you major in when you don't exactly know what you want to do. So I did not have a clear idea of what I wanted to do coming out of college. you're a commuter? Hell yeah. Yeah, no, that my mom always said, that's the major, that's the major when you're not exactly sure what's going on. said,
Emma (12:09.416)
Me too. I was also a comms major for the record.
Sally (12:23.126)
You know what, mom? Or the major, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, me. So I had taken an advertising course because I minored in marketing, but I don't really remember a lot from it, to be honest. And so when I got, so the first startup that I worked at, the company, the app,
Emma (12:23.152)
or the major when you really like people and you're chatty and curious. Let's go with that.
Sally (12:51.724)
the game that they were producing did not end up succeeding. I got let go and I remember someone told me we worked in a startup incubator and they said hold your head high and talk to everyone at the different startups in the startup incubator and say I just got let go I'm looking for a job do you know anyone because I was what 22 I had no networking skills or didn't know what to do I don't even remember who gave me the advice but that's what I did I walked around and I said
I just got let go, do you know anyone? And I remember this one guy, he said, well, are you interested in working in advertising? And I said, like, are you interested in working for an agency? I think he said. And then I said, don't even, I don't really know what that is. You know, I've taken this course once, but it's so theoretical. I'm not exactly sure what that means. I've never really thought about it. And
So he introduced me to someone named Jim McGill, who was my boss for the next four years, still is a close friend. Jim, I hope you listen to this, I love you. And I started interviewing at a company called Chibo, which was a user experience agency, not an advertising agency, but a user experience agency. And again, I followed the heart.
I loved the people. It was a small agency. I really enjoyed gym. They were hiring for a social media person. I being just out of college knew what Facebook was and knew what Twitter was. And that was the advantage that I had. And so I said, sure, I guess I kind of know enough about this. I will join your company because I believe in you and I believe in the values of the company. And I love everyone that I've interviewed with. Let's do it.
So all of a sudden I became, it actually was a community manager. All of a sudden I became a community manager on one of their social media accounts at the agency where my job was essentially to respond to people that were upset at Union Bank and help guide them to their like.
Emma (15:08.816)
Was it like customer support?
Sally (15:11.403)
It wasn't customer support. would either send them to customer support or if they weren't that upset or if I, you know, they were giving a compliment that I would respond with something like witty or things like that. But I basically, mean, this is in 2000, 2012 maybe. So this was way before community management and brands really acting as people had.
become the forefront of how social media operates. So it was kind of just...
Emma (15:39.89)
Yeah.
And did they tell you to like speak like a bank or were you allowed to be like a 22 year old girl with a personality responding to these people from Union Bank?
Sally (15:52.3)
I think I got, that's a great question, I think I got away with a lot more of being a 22 year old girl with a personality than I should have. Because it wasn't as rigid or as monitored as the internet and social media is today. But also pretty soon on to being on that account, I was also helping create the tonal guidelines for how we should be speaking. So.
I got to kind of be involved within that. So Union Bank had like a little bit of a flare, I would say, because of me.
Emma (16:27.944)
I don't doubt it. so it sounds like, you know, obviously community manager, you're talking to people, you're curious about them, you're using your relationship skills. And it sounds like you very quickly built a lot of goodwill and trust within the company to then be working on more, you you said like helping them.
Sally (16:37.887)
Yeah.
Emma (16:52.68)
define their whole tone as a company. So talk to me about how you kind of moved up within Chibo and took on more than just being a community manager. And once you landed there, did you start to get a better understanding of what this world could look like or your place in it?
Sally (17:00.011)
Mm-hmm.
Sally (17:11.441)
Yes, so.
Gosh.
Sally (17:19.627)
This was a long time ago, so I'm just trying to remember. Let's see.
How I remember moving up from being a community manager was just that I was interested in researching social media and understanding how social media could be a larger and more important channel for brands. So as I took extra time throughout my day to start understanding, okay, this is how we should act on Facebook versus this is how we should act on Twitter.
Instagram did not even exist at this time. I think I started to be an expert within the space as much as I could be. No one else at the agent, there was no strategy department within that agency. It was pretty much just myself and the account team and the creative team. And I was kind of in like a little siloed area. So as my knowledge grew and as I grew trust on that account, I started working more within.
social media and taking on bigger campaigns. one of the things that I actually did that I still speak about if I'm interviewing or talking to someone for the first time is, sorry, one second.
Thank you.
Sally (18:54.975)
I am back, sorry.
Emma (18:56.412)
You can just say one of the things I still talk about that was kind of where you were at when you interviewing. You're doing great.
Sally (19:00.203)
Yeah, this is hard. I'm like forgetting all these stuff that happened in my career. Okay, let's see.
Sally (19:13.075)
yeah, because honestly I have no memory of like why I got promoted or anything like that. But okay, social listening. So... I just bullshitted that completely. Okay,
Emma (19:24.232)
So one of the things you still talk about when you're interviewing.
Sally (19:27.003)
One of the things that I still talk about when I'm interviewing, and one of the things that was part of my increased scope as a social media manager was to hire a social listening, like a social listening tool or service. And one of the reasons that we wanted to do that was we wanted a qualitative research tool that helped understand better what people were talking about.
online and then we would use it to inform the content that we were putting out on the social channels. Right? So that was the intent of it. We also used it for new business pitches and I was leading us investing in that tool and it was a pretty big research investment for a small agency. So it was pretty fun for me to get to kind of lead that, learn about it, talk to all the different companies and tools and all of that.
And so I had also never had a research tool before because I've always worked at kind of small and scrappy places. So that felt really big and fancy and fun. And when I got into it and started actually working with the tool that we had chosen, I realized that so much of what people were saying online didn't just inform what we would say on Facebook or what we would tweet out on the next day, but it felt like it was really important.
for how people perceived a brand overall or how people thought about a product that the brand might make. I remember when we were pitching for a pretty big wine brand and I was in charge of doing all of the research for how people actually drink about wine or how people actually drink wine and how they think about purchasing wine and the certain times in the day that they drink wine or in the week, I should say, they're not drinking it in the morning, but.
you know, happy hour versus wine night versus like, how are people speaking about that online? What are their communities that are formed around it with different cocktail recipes that include wine and things like that? So that was actually my first and you might be getting to this point with your questions, but that was my first introduction into information and understanding people that was beyond just how that works within the channels.
Sally (21:53.343)
but really looking at like a broader view of how brands show up in the world and how people kind of not even engage with them, but speak about them, whether they know they're online listening to them or not.
Emma (22:00.936)
and
Emma (22:08.776)
Yeah, and I feel like that was kind of marked a turning point when these social channels arose where now a brand could kind of close that feedback loop in a way through tools like this and get information back about how people were perceiving them and talking about them like a whole new ability to get that feedback. It sounds like opened up and you were perfectly positioned at that point to
then use your curiosity and your ability to just kind of like figure things out. And sounds like you thought this was interesting and figure out how to start to translate those insights into actionable strategies. Or what did that look like in terms of what you were then taking from those inputs?
Sally (22:43.593)
Yeah.
Sally (22:55.24)
So the main, and I should have probably explained this a little bit better, but the main takeaway that I took from the inputs is that I wanted to be a brand strategist and not a social strategist because the information that I was gleaning from the tool felt like it made an impact beyond just social channels. So it felt like instead of.
Emma (23:06.577)
Mm.
Emma (23:14.632)
Got it. So you were kind of limited to just be a social strategist. You're like, no, I need to be a brand strategist to help the brand think differently about how they go to market or position themselves or talk as a brand because it was more strategic and there was more insight there at a higher level.
Sally (23:31.658)
Yeah, it felt like what people were saying online didn't just need to stay in an online space and inform content. It felt like it could inform how a brand was positioned. could help inform a new product innovation or how a product was repositioned or how a TV campaign might come to life. was just it's so it was so much more. Like you said, high level.
human interaction and insight, that really opened my eyes to say, hey, I have all these interesting things, but it just feels like they're a bit more helpful than what you're gonna put in this content calendar next week. So that was the first time, and that's why I said I bring this up in interviews because people always wanna know what was that aha moment that I decided that I wanted to be a brand strategist, and it was by researching people in a social media environment.
and realizing the far broader applicability of the information that I was digesting, analyzing, know, theming out to people at the agency.
Emma (24:40.232)
So you get this insight, you get this aha moment, and then what did it look like from there to make the pivot into actually being a brand strategist?
Sally (24:52.742)
Yeah, so that was a really long journey for me. The agency that I worked with at the time, they were absolutely wonderful because once I had this aha moment, said, there I again, I didn't even know there was something called brand strategy because the agency did not have a strategy department. But when I described basically like what I was feeling.
my boss who was the CMO at the agency said, you want to be a brand strategist? Let me explain this to you and what this means. Unfortunately, we don't have a role for that at this current agency, but we're happy to help you basically try and live out that dream someplace else. So they actually let me still work at the company until I found a new job, like being completely transparent with them that I was going to leave.
but they kept me on to help with social media. At that point, I was also helping market the agency. So I learned a little bit more about integrated marketing as well, which was awesome. and to jump into, or sorry, to try and find a job that was brand strategy oriented. So from there, I, I ended up actually taking a job that was not brand strategy oriented because it was very difficult for me to find something that was.
specific to being a brand strategist. think the market was just difficult at that point and there weren't a lot of jobs like at my level. And when I left Chibo, I actually had another crossroads with two companies, one of which was a really big old traditional brand strategy and research company where I would have to level down.
take a pay cut. And in the interview, someone told me, this job isn't really going to be that fun, but you're going to get the skills that you need to become a great brand strategist. So that was option A. And then option B was that I worked at another small, fun agency where I really liked the people and everyone that I interviewed with. And I would have to, like I took a social strategist title.
Sally (27:18.419)
but they at least had a strategy team at that agency that I knew that I could learn from. And so no surprises here. I took the one that maybe was potentially not the best for my career ultimately, or like would be a longer road to transition into brand strategy. But I've always looked at the places that I go. Like I've always had the lens of do I like the people and do I feel good there?
as the first marker. So I did end up going there and I was lucky enough to have a little bit more of a hybrid role once I got there and I was pretty open about my desire to go into brand strategy. So once I got to that agency, I was actually able to start sort of learning the craft of brand strategy under this very brilliant like brand strategy director.
while still helping them out with social. I realize you asked me about my entire transition, but I've been talking a lot for a while, so should I keep going?
Emma (28:27.592)
No, I think that
Yeah, I think that's great. mean you you almost joke like haha I just go to the place that's more fun that the people I like best but also in that it does sound pretty strategic where you're like Okay, I can get in and kind of the social strategist role, but they do have a strategy team I can learn from people who are brilliant here. I like this team and organization. This feels good and again like Trusting that inner knowing and following it versus like overriding it with the maybe more rational or prestigious thing has
Sally (28:44.798)
Yeah.
Emma (28:59.264)
you really well in your career.
Sally (29:02.043)
Yeah, yeah, I that again, a wonderfully positive framing that I love. But I mean, I will say, each of these agencies, I still am connected to people that even today are helping are serving me right in my freelance career. I've I've made connections throughout my entire career that I still feel close to.
Emma (29:27.93)
And they weren't just networking. It's not just like a, I make this connection because it's transactional and I want something from you. Like I think true networking is relationship building. It is making true connections, caring about people first, which you've done innately by the nature of who you are. And because you've built such solid relationships, not only has that served you at every company you've worked in, you've...
Sally (29:31.496)
Yeah.
Emma (29:52.911)
been able to move up or move laterally into the team that you wanted to, but also now being a freelancer, they're referring you clients, they're bringing you into their company. So I think, again, that's part of your zone of genius that oftentimes can be overlooked or people devalue because they're trying to make the strategic or savvy move, but losing sight of what ultimately pays dividends in the long run.
Sally (29:56.425)
Yeah.
Sally (30:21.385)
Yeah, no, I love that. I what I talk about my career now, and I know I'm jumping ahead so I can also continue to explain the transition to brand strategy, but I feel sometimes I look back at my career and I think, man, if I had worked at a place that was super hardcore and I worked
Emma (30:29.874)
Please.
Sally (30:48.617)
70 hours a week for the first four years of my career and really learned all of the foundational brand strategy and went big agency and all the things that you're quote-unquote supposed to do. Maybe I would be more senior or make more money or do this and that like everyone has a little bit of woulda, coulda, shoulda in their lives, but where I'm at today, I'm just so happy right now with where I've landed and I feel like I'm
successful financially and level wise. I also feel like I am fulfilled in what I do and the relationships that I've made. I think I did. I appreciate you saying that the moves that I made were strategic. think even having this conversation with you, it's kind of coming to light of choices that I made that I don't necessarily think I realized were for the most like.
for the most short-term success perspective of my career have now benefited me in the long run in ways that I didn't really get then, but obviously because I operate the way I operate, they've worked out for me now. Like people at this last agency that I was just speaking about, I only worked there for six months, and one of the girls that I worked with there, Lindsay, out again.
I have a monthly catch up with. Like I still talk to her once a month. She's amazing. So yeah.
Emma (32:27.218)
So, okay, so I want to get also to you, you know, deciding to leave the agency life and go into freelance. But before we do, just like walk us through then becoming kind of like a strategy director and, you know, kind of a little bit about what that entailed and how, you know, what you felt about work and how it deepened or you knew you were doing the right thing or when you felt like actually, maybe there needs to be a pivot here and I need to realign.
Sally (32:57.658)
Yeah. Okay, so after that social media strategy agency, and I'll skip through the parts before it because I kind of missed a whole like seven year chunk of my career where I worked at the next place. And that was really where I made the transition from social media strategist to brand strategist. And I was really able to work like
a hybrid role there and again, very lucky to just learn from the best of the best in an environment that was not totally ride or die and intense and working at all hours of the night as many agencies are. But I was able to make that transition, which was amazing and just such a, such a huge deal to me because I had wanted it for so long and kind of took this like
longer path towards it that still felt right for me, but at times, you know, you always question if that's the right decision and how do I afford life in San Francisco and all of those sorts of things. But I achieved my career dream. Like, I still sort of think of that as the day that I got told that I could transition my title and that I would be taking on more brand strategy work.
that was such a huge deal to me. It still feels like such a huge deal to me, even though to someone maybe outside of advertising, it just seems like, well, what's really the difference? But it's just led me to work on work that I love doing so much. So I feel really grateful for that. So once I transitioned into more of a brand strategy role,
It really was just trying to get as much experience as I could across as many projects and different types of brand strategy or other types of strategy because there's something called a T-shaped strategist and you're supposed to, there's like six or seven elements of it and you're supposed to really understand all of them. I won't get into the minutia of what they are, but I got to work on anything ranging from big brand campaigns,
Sally (35:19.218)
to workshop development, to learning how to conduct and design research, to working with massive research partners, all the way to the last year that I think I was at Camp & King, which was the agency partnering with the CEO to help develop our comms planning arm and how we really thought about comms planning at Camp & King because we didn't actually have a media department or a comms planning team.
So I felt like I had a really lovely breadth of experience that I got at a small agency and that being at a small agency enabled me to do in the way that I didn't think working at a big agency would. And yeah.
Emma (36:06.002)
And that's such an important point I just want to touch on because your choices to go to these small companies did allow you, sounds like, to wear a lot more hats and get broader exposure rather than just kind of be told to stay in your lane. And for someone who is curious and high energy and wants to take all of this on, like that really served you in a way that going to the more big agency might not have. And I think that I see this a lot with my clients who may work at, you know,
big fortune 100 companies versus going to an earlier stage startup. It's a totally different energy and vibe and the kind of like work and culture. And so sometimes being able to differentiate like, am I a big company person or am I a smaller, scrappier company person? Sounds like you kind of identified what was more your
Sally (36:50.179)
Yeah.
Emma (36:57.308)
DNA or ethos what you would enjoy more and you kind of picked right where maybe if you had gone that big agency route and kind of just been told no you are our social media person that might not have happened in the same way
Sally (37:11.688)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right. I was allowed and also created the amount of flexibility that I've had within the roles that I've been at. again, the flip side, and I'm saying that with quotation marks of it, is if you look at my resume, I don't have the big famous agencies on there that a recruiter might look at and say, oh, well, you've never had big agencies.
Not even that you've never had big agency experience, but who are these agencies that you've worked for, you know, where the top 10 or things like that. But if a recruiter is looking at my resume from that perspective, I don't think I want to work with that recruiter because I'm still very confident in my skills. And I think that I have equally as good of experience coming from my background and learning the things that I've learned. And it's something that I've proven out in my freelance career. So.
I'm very happy that I went with what always felt good to me and environments that I wanted to be in because it's just, it's led me to be the type of strategist that I am and be the type of like woman person, business person that I am as well. Yeah, go.
Emma (38:33.436)
Yeah, and I love that. I love that approach of just like, hey, okay, if all you value is kind of...
big agency experience and I probably wouldn't want to work there and I stand behind the experience that I bring to the table and the skills that I have. I think that's just like a very high self-worth approach and in doing that you're also in a decision-making seat where you're evaluating opportunities of whether or not you want to bring your energy and time and attention to them.
rather than just kind of being a pick-me-girl that's like, I just need a job, or am I good enough, or do you want me? And I think a lot of us can get stuck in that trap, right, where we're interviewing or orienting our career around being chosen or being good enough or being worthy by chasing these different markers of success. And again, I know it doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but I'm sure to a lot of people.
Sally (39:03.698)
Yeah.
Sally (39:29.512)
This is it.
Emma (39:30.522)
listening right now in the audience and a lot of the clients that I work with day in and day out, that's just not how they make decisions and not their internal orientation. And I just think it's so important to reflect that to you and underscore it because I think it really has served you so well. And I think that is one of the things that, I mean, you're my best friend, but I've never heard you articulate it in this way. And it's so clear that that is something that is
Sally (39:37.947)
Yeah.
Emma (39:56.581)
so core to why you've loved your career so much that I'm seeing come into focus.
Sally (40:00.52)
Hmm.
Ah, thank you. Yeah, me too. This is a clarifying call for me. Like, okay, I'm gonna remember this for my talk track when I'm explaining my experience later on. No, it's, think, yeah.
Emma (40:09.063)
Yeah
Emma (40:13.552)
Hahaha
So let's talk about, okay, so you're now a brand strategist, you're now the strategy director, is that what it is?
Sally (40:30.099)
Yeah, when I transitioned, I was a senior brand strategist. So I had to make it up two levels from there.
Emma (40:35.834)
Okay, so you're now.
Okay, so you worked your way up in brand strategy to be a senior brand strategist. At what point did you start to feel the pull to go freelance or what was it that started to either feel misaligned or just call you to leaving agency life to do your own thing?
Sally (41:00.091)
That's a great question. And you know what is so funny actually is Phil was doing some fall cleaning in one of our drawers yesterday, I think this was, and he found these two worksheets that him and I had filled out together about money, like money before you're 30 or something like that. And in it, we had to answer all of these questions like
Where do you want to be in five years? Where do you want to be in 10 years? How much do you want to be making? Like, how do you want to be spending your money? Something like that. And we didn't write the year. We had the date, but not the year. So I'm not exactly sure when they were. But I was very surprised to see, I must have been 28 or 29, we thought, that I said, hopefully one day we'll be freelancing. And I don't remember wanting to be freelance that early on.
Emma (41:53.053)
Mm.
Sally (41:57.945)
I only really remember wanting to be freelance within the past couple years actually. So obviously I had thought about it a little bit, but I think...
Sally (42:12.07)
I think I've always been a little like, I've always struggled a little bit in a hierarchy, which I think can be for better or for worse. Like sometimes I'm missing a little bit of the like respect the hierarchy gene and I want things the way that I want them, which doesn't always operate within a wider
system and Can I scratch that? I feel like this is not I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep Riffing on this Let me just think about it for a second. It's just something I don't know if I want to say yeah publicly about being anti the man
Emma (42:50.256)
It's fine, it's fine, just keep going and I can cut that.
Emma (43:05.661)
That's fine.
Sally (43:11.143)
let's see.
Sally (43:16.487)
Okay. So the first time, like some of the first times that I started thinking about going freelance, I think was probably, it was multifaceted. Some of it was because I was having trouble working within a hierarchy. And I think that's something that I've always, I don't know if struggle is a word, but always like,
operated within or had trouble operating within a little bit, which just comes as a part of being an employee in a business. I think part of it was I started feeling a little bit restless. And I think once you start feeling a little bit restless within an agency setting, it's a difficult thing because agencies get much more freedom than
For example, if you work with a client or on the brand side, you have to do everything for one brand. And one of the benefits of working with an agency is that you can work on a bunch of different brands and do a bunch of different things. So if I was kind of starting to get restless within that environment, I was thinking, hmm, I don't think the solution for that is to go to another agency. It could potentially be freelance. And then I also have...
Not, and again, this is probably me optimizing for fun a little bit, but being within the confines, I guess, not only of a hierarchy, but also within the nine to five constraints have been difficult. Like I didn't want to necessarily be sitting at my desk just because I was on the clock. If I didn't have work to do, I wanted to, you know, be doing something else. Or if I wanted to be doing something else at that time and I did have work to do,
I would rather do the work at 9 p.m. which is something that obviously does not work when you need to be in a full time environment. So those were some of the things that I think I started noodling on a couple years ago. And another thing that I was thinking about was going client side because I did really want the full 360 integrated marketing experience, something that I still think would be really valuable.
Sally (45:40.711)
what I found was it was difficult for me to transition at my, at the level that I was at. I was getting not chosen for companies because I didn't have client side experience yet. So I was having trouble, you know, getting interviews as the agency girl. And I also sort of realized in the interviews that I did have that it felt like this was something that I was doing because I thought it was a good idea and it would be good for my career.
And again, I'm hearing the theme. I know!
Emma (46:11.346)
which is counter to the way you've made decisions your entire career.
Sally (46:18.075)
Yeah, I was thinking this sound like I get that this is good for me, but does it sound like something I is that's really going to spark my brain in the same way that some of these other opportunities have or that working at an agency has? I'm not so sure. So it was after kind of going through a while of thinking about and trying to go client side and
them not liking me enough and me not liking them enough that I thought maybe becoming freelance is actually something that would be a really smart like next career move for me. I will say at the same time my husband Phil who you know like he became an airline pilot. He is never going to work a nine to five. And so it felt like if I was already craving a little bit more freedom and a little
was feeling a little anti nine to five constraints and working my way up like the corporate agency ladder, like burnout basically. Why wouldn't I choose something that my skill marries really well with, which is freelance? And why don't I kind of bend to him and his schedule? Like, is this something that's possible? So.
It started feeling like freelance made more and more sense. I had also moved to New York right around the time when this really started feeling like it could be a concrete possibility. And it felt like no one in New York had a full time job. Now I realize everyone like it just happened to be the people that I was surrounded by at the time, which were a huge inspiration to me. Steph Tang, Nate Mahalovich.
Those are the only two I can remember at time, but it was like, all my best friends don't have a full-time job. I also don't want to have a full-time job. And so it was kind of an amalgamation of all of these things that made it feel possible.
Emma (48:28.008)
And in that, the fact that you didn't get kind of a client side job, that was kind of a door closing, but actually realigning you. It's like the universe doing you a favor, right? It's like sometimes when things don't work out, it's actually redirecting you and it's for the best. And then to also just so happen that the people in your world where you were living didn't have these full-time jobs at the time where you got to have...
Sally (48:38.725)
Yeah.
Emma (48:55.77)
inspiration and a taste of what that could look like all helped to orient you towards freelance being the right next step. And it sounds like, again, you're taking these inputs and you're listening to yourself and what would feel good and expansive and energizing and acting on that and freelance just became clearer and clearer over time that that was the best path forward.
Sally (49:19.366)
100%. Yes, I saw the light, I made the decision, and then there was no turning back.
Emma (49:29.126)
So how did you, once you had made that decision, mentally at least, how did you then prepare yourself financially, emotionally, and strategically to actually make that transition?
Sally (49:42.212)
Yeah, I, it took a lot of prep. took a lot of planning. I was still employed full time when I made the decision. And so what I did is, you know, on nights and weekends, I, I would interview people that I knew were freelancers, and ask them, I just talked to as many people as possible basically about what they did in their careers and how they made the shift.
I put together a portfolio, is something that I hadn't had not had before. It's something that's very important to have as a freelancer. It's basically my website. It's my entire brand. So I got that together. I started like sending out emails to everyone I knew to ask about projects and try and get the first like leads that I had generated. And then I also spoke.
with my husband who, and that's, I guess the first part is from a practical perspective, what I started doing, which was basically intake as much information as possible. It's called like a discovery phase of a project of me saying, okay, is this a life that I want to live and how do I get there? What are the things that I need to do? Then from a financial perspective, it was speaking with my husband and he thankfully
has now a very secure job as an airline pilot. So I do tell people openly, honestly, all the time who want to go freelance, like having a partner with a very secure job and understanding what your partner is going to make. Pilot salary transparency is so transparent that you understand what a pilot's going to make year after year after year. They're not waiting on it.
promotion or something like that. that was a really big source of stability. And him and I also discussed that before he got this wonderful job at the current airline that he's at, I had been the breadwinner for the past decade of our relationship. So it felt fair to us that I would take on a little bit more financial risk. And he was the one that could be the breadwinner if necessary and be like the steady source of income.
Sally (52:07.684)
So that was from a financial perspective. And then from an emotional perspective, it's funny because at the time when I had made the decision, I was just so excited that I didn't, I feel like I got smacked in the face once I started.
Emma (52:27.602)
you
Sally (52:31.565)
Ahem. I feel like I got smacked in the face once I started freelance with how emotional it was, and that was something that I wasn't necessarily ready for.
Emma (52:44.07)
Do think it was better that you didn't know that, that you could just like jump while you were excited and then you had to kind of figure it out? Or do you think if you had known the roller coaster that lay ahead, that would have deterred you?
Sally (52:59.141)
I'm glad, I don't know if it would have deterred me, but it would have made me more anxious than I was taking the jump. And something that I did right, you know, in the beginning of, or in the middle of 2022 was I was still full-time, but I really wanted to get my first project and basically go from full-time right into my first project.
Emma (53:27.268)
Mm-hmm, I remember this.
Sally (53:28.261)
So I wouldn't have to basically lose any income from not having my salary, but also be able to give them enough lead time, yada, yada. So I was trying to do this and it just was not working at all. And I ended up speaking with a freelance advertising specific person, coach, and she told me,
Practically, no one's gonna hire you because you have to give, you're saying you're gonna give a month's notice at your full-time job. Freelance projects don't work like that. They say they need you Friday and you start on Monday. like, practically you're not setting yourself up for success and trying to find a job because you are not available. But more importantly, energetically, you're not.
going all in into what you're trying to do right now. You're still focused, you're still working at a full-time job. So most of your brain energy is focused on the full-time job. Like, thinking about this at nights and weekends isn't really gonna help you because you're still focused on working for your boss and doing a good job at your day job. So if you want to become freelance, you are very likely going to need to quit.
And I remember all of my friends at that time, bless their hearts as they should be, were just gassing me up and telling me I can do it and that. as friends do, we want to make sure our friends' dreams become a reality. And she was the only one that said, no, I think you need to quit. You cannot do both of these things at the same time. And so I said, OK. And so I quit.
and did not have any project lined up, decided I would take a month off of work just because I never had done that besides being part of a layoff. And that one month ended up being three and a half months because I was so obsessed with not working at that time. And I needed to have a decompression from the past decade of working full time that even though I remember
Emma (55:43.506)
Yeah.
Sally (55:48.501)
even though I was not burnt out from like the amount of work that I had at my last agency. And so I thought, I can just pick up the next thing. It was a full decade of having to work full time that I needed those three and a half months to just let my brain like get back to equilibrium. And I remember thinking during that time, like,
Emma (56:08.252)
Yeah.
Sally (56:14.664)
what if I never want to work again? What if I love this so much and I don't actually have the drive to be freelance and I don't, and I hate what I do and it's so much nicer not working and I just want to be a housewife and not that we can afford that, but I, those thoughts were definitely, I was like, no, I'm going to have to go back to work. I really hope I have the drive eventually to go back to work. And I did. Thank, thank goodness I started getting bored and.
Emma (56:26.696)
Yes.
Sally (56:44.293)
Two weeks later, my first project and still my most favorite project that I've ever worked on came through the door.
Emma (56:52.168)
I one is so important and is so common. I talk about this with clients all the time, whether you're truly at burnout or not, like we are cyclical seasonal beings and we're meant to have seasons of winter and rest and shedding and introspection and just letting ourself land in stillness, right? And so...
The fact that you let yourself have it before really starting freelance is so, so important. But I also think that what you're speaking to, when we've been in that push and go and hustle mode for so long, and then we finally let ourself rest, oftentimes I see with clients, it's like the pendulum swings and you're like, maybe I'm meant to be a trad wife. Maybe I'm not ambitious at all. I don't know, but for most of my clients, that doesn't last. The pendulum does come back to center and you're like, no, I
Sally (57:36.046)
Yeah.
Emma (57:44.919)
am motivated, I am excited, I am ambitious, but we need to rest, we need to recalibrate. And so I love that you really listen to that and we're like, okay, one month isn't enough. It's gonna have to be multiple months. And then again, seeing this through signs from the universe that the project came through as soon as you started feeling bored. It's like that door was shut, that door was shut until you're like, okay, now I'm actually ready. And then everything started moving.
Sally (57:44.985)
Yeah.
Sally (57:51.204)
Yes.
Sally (58:08.218)
Yeah.
Sally (58:11.927)
Yes, that is, I am, and I always, you know, I always wanna respond to something like that with, I'm so lucky because I am so lucky. I've had a lot of luck in life and in career, but I do, I am also a big believer now in like, through conversations with you, through coaching, through conversations with freelancer friends of the idea of.
opening yourself up to something and letting it come kind of at the right moment. That was my biggest and best example of it. Of course, that's happened again throughout my career and it's a consistent lesson that I need to keep telling myself and reminding myself. But yeah, it rocked when it happened that way.
Emma (58:59.592)
And so then what did those early months like after you got your first project and as you started like really starting to build your freelance business look like and what went the way you expected it to or what surprised you and went differently?
Sally (59:18.253)
Yeah.
Sally (59:23.116)
The first couple of months of my freelance career, think the first project that I did was just amazing. Everything about it was so interesting. It was exactly what I wanted from the perspective of doing strategy in a way that I wasn't necessarily used to doing it. So I got to learn not necessarily like a new type of strategy, but within a different.
process, a sprint process that I wasn't familiar with before. I got to work with amazing people. The client was awesome. So from a work perspective, right off the bat, I was feeling really, really energized. And just, I'm really lucky that I did have that first project because it opened my eyes to kind of the scope of opportunity of things that there would be for me in the freelance world. So from a work perspective,
That was pretty awesome. I also learned a lot about negotiating. mean, I'm like a stayer at the full time, like in my full time life. I've only worked at four places, two of which were six months or less. The other two were like four years and almost seven years. So.
I don't have to negotiate a lot besides when I'm getting promoted, but in freelance you have to negotiate, you know, sometimes once a month. And that's negotiating from a financial perspective, from a scope perspective. It's having tough conversations about what you'll do and what you'll not do and things like that. And that was very difficult and very emotional for me, for sure.
because I wasn't used to kind of like selling my wares and proving myself and creating boundaries in the way that I didn't like in a way that I did not have to do when I was full time. So how, what I figured out pretty early on was that.
Sally (01:01:37.444)
let's see my train of thought. What I figured out pretty early on was that while I was at that point, very senior in terms of brand strategy and the skill that I brought to the table, I was basically in the infancy of becoming a business owner. And I wouldn't even have used the word business owner at the time. I just thought, freelancer. And I didn't have any other thoughts about it.
But understanding that I had to literally run my own business and every decision that I made makes or breaks my bottom line was both incredibly like inspiring and jaw dropping and also very scary because I wasn't good at it. I'm doing air quotes again. I was not good at it. Yeah, quote unquote. I was quote unquote.
Emma (01:02:31.032)
Bye.
Sally (01:02:36.526)
quote unquote good at it yet. And so it is scary to be doing a thing where you're expected to show up in a very senior way, but feeling like, my gosh, but I've only done this a handful of times before. So I'm asking for large amounts of money in a way that I'm just sort of trying to fake it till I make it.
Emma (01:03:00.06)
Mm-hmm.
Sally (01:03:06.264)
But yeah.
Emma (01:03:06.426)
Yeah, and you had this skill set that you really knew and had honed and could lean on, but like in your entrepreneurial journey or as a business owner, that was all new. And I often talk to my clients about how like entrepreneurship is like the biggest personal development journey ever. You're going to reach every growth edge. You're going to uncover every like insecurity or, you know, negotiating or owning your worth or being able to, you know,
Sally (01:03:22.958)
Yeah.
Emma (01:03:31.43)
convey that value. And so it sounds like that was kind of the surprising thing of like, okay, no, I actually am the one responsible for all of this. But even if you didn't know it to start, you were, you've been able to figure it out. So while it might have been daunting, there's like so much growth that comes from that. And you've figured out what you needed to know as you've needed to know it.
Sally (01:03:53.376)
Yeah, that's exactly right. I would say last year, which was my first year of freelance, I learned more than I have in any other year of my life simply by learning how to be an entrepreneur because I have to be honest when I went freelance. I didn't think I was an entrepreneur because I thought entrepreneurs were people that make products or have services.
Emma (01:04:18.92)
that have venture capital funded startups.
Sally (01:04:22.148)
Yeah, that have venture capital funded and that and I'm thinking, oh, well, I just am hired by businesses and agents like brands and agencies. That's freelance. That's not. Yeah, that's not entrepreneurship. And then once I realized that it was, I felt equally more important and more daunted at the same time. So it's been it's been a huge.
Emma (01:04:32.294)
I'm not a business owner.
Sally (01:04:49.631)
learning curve and opportunity for me, but that element of it really, really lights me up. And I know I have so much to learn and grow there. And I've, you know, made a bunch of mistakes and had a bunch of proud moments, but that is something that I've actually like building my business and understanding how to operate my business and what my values are and what my boundaries are has been.
a really wonderful part of this journey for me.
Emma (01:05:21.442)
And I mean, as your best friend, I know this, but I want to like also just use this as an expander to prove what's possible for those listening. Like, can you tell us about, you know, the success you had just in your first year in business? Because it is pretty astounding what you've been able to do and build in such a short period of time.
Sally (01:05:43.971)
Sure, yeah. mean, my... Like, in the first year of business...
I actually, the first year of business I look at, can I talk about, I'm gonna talk about my first year and my second year because I actually think of those differently. So in terms of success for my first year in business, the first thing I'll say is it was not as big of a financial success as maybe I would have thought in the beginning of the process. And the reason that I say that,
Emma (01:05:57.958)
Yeah, totally.
Emma (01:06:19.538)
There's so much to build in that first year too.
Sally (01:06:22.478)
There's so much to build, but the reason that I say that is because I think when I left, know, earning more income was also a big driver of why I wanted to choose this lifestyle, because when you're successful in freelance, you can be very successful. But I kind of quickly realized that if that was gonna be my main metric of success, I wasn't gonna be able to actually run the business that...
I wanted to run because as we've learned, I'm not a skull. I like to work with people that make me feel good and I have fun with and projects that tickle my brain. So, yes, that married with the fact that it was my first year. I am very new to New York, so I do not have all the contacts that people that have lived here for years have. But I think what I also got out of that first year
Ultimately, and I had to be reminded this again and again and again, were like seeds that I planted that I know will sprout and grow and blossom over the next couple years. I got my first project ended up being a retainer client, which is something that's pretty difficult to do to convince, you know, someone within the first month that you're working with them that
they want to work with you for the rest of the year. So there was that. I got to travel the world for a couple projects. I got to go to Sao Paulo, Brazil, and I got to go to Lake Como and work on these sprints and meet really interesting international people, work with a pretty international team, which was amazing on some global work that I was really proud of. I actually see some of the work that I...
led strategically at least come to life like in Times Square a couple months after the project and going to see that live which was really amazing. I also had a whole like reframe A around business but B around how I thought about networking and I became much better at networking and talking to people and having conversations.
Emma (01:08:23.314)
So far.
Sally (01:08:46.167)
and not even trying to get business, but just understanding like interesting parts of people and feeling connected to them that hopefully will turn into business eventually. I learned how to negotiate pretty well. I learned my worth and my rate and, I just, I got to work on a lot of awesome projects. So I think that was your. Yeah.
Emma (01:09:13.67)
And what about then in year two? I also have a call I have to get to, so I want to just like wrap up. Sorry, we've been going, but no, I want to hear about year two and just like the financial success or like more than replacing your income in less months or whatever that looked like that you're willing to share there. And then we'll skip the rapid fire and just wrap up.
Sally (01:09:19.303)
my God. Yeah.
Sally (01:09:32.771)
Okay, so, yeah, and then in year two, I was able to, and this is how freelance goes, it's highs and lows, from, first of all, the seeds that I had planted in year one came to fruition in year two, especially financially, and I was able to take on a number of projects throughout the year and also take on a lot of time off throughout the year.
And there were points where that time off was a little bit longer than I had initially intended and work was slow and things weren't coming in. But I was patient. I continued networking. I continued basically building my business in ways that didn't involve client work. And now I will have hit basically my reach financial goal for the year while also not working for about three and a half months of the year. So
Emma (01:10:32.978)
So your reach goal, your stretch goal for the entire year, you essentially hit in eight and a half months of work, taking three and a half months off and still hitting your reach goal for the year in your second year in business. I mean, that's so bad ass. And I just, mean, I've loved this conversation so much in the fact that you've just continued to listen to that inner knowing and that desire and what feels good and making those heart.
Sally (01:10:33.217)
good for me.
Sally (01:10:37.272)
Yeah.
Sally (01:10:44.397)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Emma (01:11:01.702)
centered choices, but also trusting yourself and being willing to lean into the hard and learn and stick with it. mean, I just think the results that you've been able to create in a way that's felt so good is the definition of conscious success and will be so expansive to so many other people listening. So.
Thank you. I'm sure a lot of people will be inspired and see themselves hopefully in your story. And so for anyone who wants to learn more or potentially has a project and wants to work with you, where's the best place to find you?
Sally (01:11:35.103)
You can email me at sallysally.kallet.com or you can go to my website which is www.sallykallet.com. Those are the best ways.
Emma (01:11:51.75)
We'll throw it all in the show notes then. Awesome. Thank you, Sally. I love you. Thank you for being here. I feel like I got to see a whole nother lens through this conversation. It's been so fun. So thank you so much.
Sally (01:11:55.299)
Perfect.
Sally (01:12:05.4)
Thanks honey, this was the best. I appreciate you.
