Emma (00:01.43)
Okay, Eric, I'm so happy to have you on the pod. Thank you so much for joining us today. This is such a treat.
Erica Katz (00:07.598)
Thank you for inviting me. I've heard so much about you and I'm so excited to finally speak to you.
Emma (00:09.774)
you
Emma (00:14.728)
Yes. Okay. So let's dive in. I want to go back to like the very beginning. Tell us about who was little Erica as a kid and what did you want to be when you grew up?
Erica Katz (00:25.89)
Little Erica as a kid totally wanted to be a veterinarian. And then I realized I like only like dogs and also I'm not a fan of anything like remotely bodily fluid oriented. So I was very quickly not going into the medical profession though I am the only non-medical professional in my entire extended family.
Emma (00:30.603)
Interesting.
Erica Katz (00:54.156)
I mean, there is a laundry list of doctors in my family and it was really never on the table for me. I was always a more left brain kid. Like I would sort of, I mean, I was a high achieving good student, but like I just remember in math class, like I had to work so hard to engage with the material cause it just, wasn't my language. Like literally language, my language.
Emma (00:54.306)
Wow.
Emma (01:17.452)
Hmm.
And how did you internalize that when you weren't good at math? Were you like, that's fine, I'm good at language and it doesn't matter? Or did you say to yourself like, this is a problem, I need to double down and be better at math and so I can be a doctor like the rest of my family.
Erica Katz (01:34.085)
So the really remarkable thing, which I think is so indicative of my personality, is that it crushed math classes, that I loved the teacher. And when I didn't like the teacher and I felt like maybe just a lack of connection, I really struggled. And I was partially hard on myself, but I would definitely develop a defense mechanism. I'm just not doing
Emma (01:44.15)
Hmm.
Erica Katz (02:03.626)
anything with math anyway, so like why do I need it and stuff like that. My parents were pretty good about like not being too overbearing academically and at the same time like expecting good results. But I remember I was doing like pretty badly in like advanced calculus in high school and my mom went into the teacher and was like look this kid
Like she was, I remember even as a high schooler where you're sort of like wrapped up in your own world thinking that my mom was like extremely practical about this. She like went in and she's like, what can Erica do to like get a B or a B? Because this kid is gonna go to a good school and I'm not letting some really shit grade, am I allowed to say shit on a podcast? They have really shit grade in a good calculus class, like ruin her chances of doing what she wants to do.
Emma (02:52.309)
Of course, please.
Erica Katz (03:02.788)
And I did like extra credit and I had to work like really hard. There was no tutor involved, but we were like talking to tutors. But English was my jam and I loved English. like, I just, I just felt really lost in the best way in books. And they let me see worlds that I would have never seen.
Emma (03:15.822)
Hmm.
Erica Katz (03:31.414)
and experience things that I never would have experienced. And like, really immersed myself in what I write, I mean, in what I read. And that was my only sort of experience with books until I tried to write one, was just being an avid reader.
Emma (03:45.944)
Hmm. Yeah. And I love what you say about like losing yourself in that, because I feel like so often what I talk to with clients is like the things that we lose our sense of self that we get energy from that we're just fully immersed in. Like that's pointing us in the direction of our gifts of our zone of genius of the things that we're meant to be doing in this world. And oftentimes we can devalue them or see them as just like a hobby or a nice thing because they're not hard for us. But it sounds like you really identified like that is something that
is worth you pursuing or going more into from the start.
Erica Katz (04:18.222)
Totally.
Yeah, and interestingly enough, I think being bad at math sort of became, and I wasn't bad at science, because I liked it, but I was bad at math, and I think that almost became my brand, if that's possible. When I got to college and I was able to choose my courses, I really, really excelled.
but there was a math requirement and I just remember thinking like, why does the world like want me to do math so badly? Like I like had to take a statistics class or something as a psychology major. And I was just like, so I like had to work so hard to get a good grade again. And I like, it just followed me in law. Then I went to law school just cause we can talk about that, but I like didn't know what else to do with my life. So I went to law school and
Emma (05:11.053)
So you were a psychology major undergrad and you loved reading, but then what led you to go to law school? Like what was that choice?
Erica Katz (05:19.438)
So I was a double major in English and psychology and I minored in religion. And I think it just all speaks to my fascination with people and how they work. And my interest in psychology is like quite literally my same interest in literature, which is just exploring like deep diving with people and what makes them work, which I think books, the books I like to so well.
Emma (05:38.242)
Mm-hmm.
Erica Katz (05:48.868)
And psychology was sort of like the science behind that. And then religion, I just have always found fascinating and I had enough credits. So I was like suddenly a religion minor. But law school became an answer because my parents like have a very, I would say like,
post-World War II mentality of like, whatever you do, you need to have a profession because when the world goes, like when the world falls apart, no one can take away your degree. And I'm like, you guys like just aren't, know, like Holocaust survivors. do you know, it's just like a very intense, like you have to have something that no one can take away from you.
And they didn't like outright say it, but sort of my whole family like went to grad schools and stuff. so I was, and I also like, if I was to get a, if I were to have tried to get a job after graduating the University of Michigan, I don't know what I would have done. Like I didn't want to go work at a magazine like three of my friends did. This was sort of like when publishing was still.
Emma (06:46.605)
Mm-hmm.
Erica Katz (07:08.131)
having a heyday and everyone wanted, yeah, right. And everyone saw the devil was brought in, still wanted to go work at the congenast and all of that. And that just wasn't me. And more practically the LSAT, which is the test you need to take to get into law school was like so well suited for my brain. Like it was extremely language focused. It was extremely logical. And I knew that if I studied, I could get into a good law school. And even my like,
Emma (07:08.919)
The hot job.
Erica Katz (07:37.258)
undeveloped brain at like age 20 or whatever understood that that would open a lot of doors. And I loved law school, like way more than I loved practicing. I thought law school was the most incredible education. had incredible professors. I met great friends. And so I have like zero regrets, by the way, about taking the exact path I took, even though I don't use being
Emma (07:43.979)
Hmm.
Erica Katz (08:05.891)
a lawyer at all anymore, slash, except like when I like read an agreement or that I'm like with my publisher. But I think like law school taught me how to think and I don't dismiss that at all because I think it's an integral part of how I write is just knowing how to analyze logically and arrange things in your brain.
Emma (08:20.247)
Mm-hmm.
Erica Katz (08:33.313)
And I thought it was a fabulous education and a great experience.
Emma (08:37.065)
Mm-hmm. So you you graduate from Columbia Law. You get out of school. Do you go straight into a law firm? Okay.
Erica Katz (08:41.218)
Yes.
And I go straight through, so I'm 24 when I graduate with like a law degree. Right, it's like seems so young, right? Right, it's not like business school where people take time off. So I'm 24 and you are like, top law school sort of like assure you into large.
Emma (08:52.727)
That is wild. You're already, yeah, graduating.
Yeah.
Erica Katz (09:09.251)
corporate jobs, even though they, are like nonprofit opportunities and there were the really cool people, like some of my, like my best friend from law school never took a corporate job. Like she always was on the business side of things. And I have another best friend from law school who sort of always did the more nonprofit thing, like sanctuary for families, but I wasn't cool enough or certain enough about what I wanted to do to make like a decision like that. And so.
I went and I made as much money as possible because like, why did I get this degree if I wasn't gonna try to make money? And I didn't really have a lot of passion at that point in my life about what I was doing, but I was really happy to be honest. Because I loved the people at the firm that I worked with and the work was hard but boring and I was fine with it because I was making money and I was living in New York City and.
Emma (09:50.605)
What about it made you happy like?
Erica Katz (10:03.182)
doing all these things, but in retrospect, I was extremely passionless.
Emma (10:10.284)
Hmm. So you liked the people and that kind of gave you energy. You liked living in New York City. You liked making this paycheck that fueled the life that you lived, but the work itself, like, did you have to fight with yourself to show up to it? Did that start to, you know, undermine your ability to be successful or you just pushed through?
Erica Katz (10:14.902)
Right, correct.
Erica Katz (10:26.432)
No,
I don't think I have it in me to like do anything halfway, but.
Emma (10:33.834)
Hmm
Erica Katz (10:36.277)
It was like, I mean, it was pre-Me Too. It was a different time and I was a young, attractive enough, socially normal enough, smart enough person at a huge law firm. And they were like, like a normal woman. Like, we're gonna like literally usher her through this process to become a partner because we need female partners. And I felt very like targeted.
Emma (11:01.003)
Mmm.
Erica Katz (11:05.259)
very early in my legal career as someone who like, because I was socially normal, like was invested in by senior people, men and women alike. And rather than be attractive, it like scared me because I think if I had just traveled on that path, I sort of quickly saw,
a far away future for me in this law firm and I had to think early about whether that was what I wanted out of life and it really wasn't. Like I really didn't like the work.
Emma (11:42.092)
So in terms of like, you're already like on the partner track basically and they're
Erica Katz (11:47.369)
Right. I felt like, and I wasn't, like if you asked anyone in like, you know, career development was like my name anywhere, but I knew like without any conceit that it could have been, right, if I worked hard enough. And I think it was subconscious, right? Like I wasn't.
Emma (11:58.934)
You could make eggs.
Erica Katz (12:10.26)
I wasn't really, I mean, it was like going out and partying when I wasn't exhausted. Like I was, I was not like really thinking about these huge life decisions in any concrete terms, but I did after three years start to write fiction, right? And it wasn't even this like really thought out thing. I didn't even, and we'll talk about it more, but I didn't even tell anyone about it. But in retrospect, it was like, I got to see if I have.
Emma (12:26.54)
Mmm.
Erica Katz (12:38.331)
something that can get me out of this.
Emma (12:42.476)
So when you started writing, you told no one, what did that look like? Were you just like writing an idea for a novel on the side? Did it even start as a idea for a novel? Like talk to us about that.
Erica Katz (12:55.17)
So it was super organic in one sense and then in the other. So I think I didn't tell people because I was scared of failing, right? Like the last thing someone with my personality wanted to do was tell everyone that I was writing a novel and then have every like family dinner slash friends dinner, people asking me how this novel was going. And I may be like, I haven't written it in three years, right? Like, like.
Emma (13:23.82)
Haven't ever finished it. Yeah.
Erica Katz (13:24.764)
That's my worst fear. It's like, like I really don't like failing at things and that is also something else we can talk about. But the idea of completing a novel and having it be like something I was remotely proud of seemed so far fetched that I kept it really close to the vest for a really long time out of sheer.
pride and self-preservation. Not because I was scared it would be so successful and I didn't want to get fired. I wrote, and it took a long time, because I started to write about an inter-office affair because I saw them around me, which was another reason I did not want to be in this corporate law world. It was just not the type of people that I grew up around. And people were really fun and wild, but it was not.
I just felt like it bred corrupt people. It just wasn't the value system that I was brought up in. And I've thought a lot about whether that's a doctor's versus lawyer's thing and whether corporate law is essentially just papering the way for companies to make more money. I mean, if we're being honest, that's what I was doing. I was literally papering that.
and whether that sort of sucks your soul and just makes you forget what matters in life. But none of this was sort of, this is all like me in retrospect, like voicing over my insane actions of starting to write fiction at age like 27 or however old I was. But it took a really long time because I did have a full-time job that was crushing. mean, it was constant emails, constant meetings.
you know, you think you have a break and then you're staffed on a deal out of Asia and suddenly you have like zero break and you like wake up to all these emails from Asia and like it's insane.
Emma (15:31.894)
Yeah, I mean, that's just like astounding to me because when you work in big law, it's like billable hours, right? And especially when you're more junior, you're just getting put on cases. And for the friends that I have who have taken a similar track, like even just being able to like make time to go to the gym, see the light of day, like have dinner with your partner, it's really hard to do, but then you're writing a novel. So how the hell did that work? Like what did it actually look like to like,
Erica Katz (15:42.422)
Yep.
Erica Katz (15:55.819)
It's a route.
Emma (16:01.695)
break that down and be able to build momentum and make consistent progress to actually write the entire novel and complete it so it wasn't just some idea that you talked about that you never saw through.
Erica Katz (16:12.006)
So making consistent progress took a really long time, but the thing about doing something that you love is that it doesn't feel like work. So like when you have a moment, you can carve it out. And by the way, as an aside, my least favorite thing about being a lawyer was when I had to respond to requests for plans, like yes, unless work comes up. And that was...
My 100 % of the time, that's how I responded to friends. Like, can you grab dinner tonight? Like, yes, unless I get slams. And 60 % of the time, I canceled on people. Like, I was extremely unreliable. I had a computer on my lap getting my makeup done at my brother's wedding. Like, it was, I was totally zoned out. There are like no pictures of me with my future sister-in-law, like getting ready. Like, it was, it was bad. And I was really in it.
Emma (17:08.831)
Did you recognize it at the time as like a problem that you were really upset with or you're just like, this is the way that it is?
Erica Katz (17:17.514)
I think part of me hated it. Part of me, if I'm being completely frank, felt important. Like part of me liked that I was the person in my friendship group that had a really big job, or what I thought was really big at the time. But it got old quickly. But I think I lasted a number of years because there was like a sense of...
people need me at these like weird hours. And, you know, I'm doing something that not anyone else can do, by the way, like, chat GBT could have done everything I did as a third year associate now. But at the time it felt a little bit important, if I'm being totally frank. And it did not feel good to need a computer on my lap at my brother's wedding. That was something that was like a bit of an aha moment for me. I was a second year associate.
And I just realized that you're never the client. That was like my, that was my big epiphany is that like, you're never the one in control of your schedule as a lawyer. You could be the global chair of your firm. And as long as you're doing client work, like someone is paying you sometimes several thousand dollars an hour to respond to them at any time. And I found that.
hugely, hugely unattractive.
Emma (18:45.641)
Hmm. Because it wasn't even something like when you look at, hey, if I want to be in big law, this is the reality. I can't just like put up stronger boundaries around my working hours and they're going to accept that it was kind of a choice point of either like, I buy into this and accept that I'm always going to have a client and I'm always going to have to work at odd hours or through my, you know, brother's wedding, if that's what it's called for, or I have to opt out and like find an exit path or choose something else with that conscious.
Erica Katz (19:09.216)
Yep.
Emma (19:15.646)
at the time.
Erica Katz (19:16.885)
That was like a more conscious thing because I started to think critically about it when I couldn't manage to like get appropriate coverage for my brother's wedding. Like things just fell through and even though I had like arranged coverage and like, you know, someone wanted me on it and they knew where I was and they knew I was in the time zone. And so it fell on me. I think a lot of young associates were looking
that I was around were looking enviously at big partners in the firm. Like, you know, they make several million dollars a year and they do this and they, and I looked at them like, they're also, they're writing back at 1.30 a.m. on a Tuesday or worse on a Saturday. you know, it just didn't feel remotely glamorous to me.
And on top of it, like, it wasn't the family units I wanted. Do you know what I mean? Like, I grew up with, my dad and my mom around, and I just, like, saw how much work these people were doing. And yes, they took very cool vacations with their families, but I was like, can this partner be a good mom if she's always here or be a good dad? Like...
It's not normal working hours that they're putting in. And so all of this sort of became conscious, think, I think like after my brother's wedding, I just started to really think about it.
Emma (20:57.18)
And was that what was like fueling you to start writing this book on the side? Like, did you see the novel as actually an exit path or was it more of like, hey, I just need to like creatively fuel myself in some way. And even if it doesn't ever turn into anything, this just feels good to do.
Erica Katz (21:14.497)
100 % the latter. I don't think I ever thought about being a novelist at that point. What I did know is that like being a capital markets attorney was not feeding my soul in any way. And I love to write. You asked what I was like as a kid, like I, not so much as a kid, but as like a teenager, I wrote everything down. Like it's how I processed the world.
You know, like at camp, Dorothy Greenwald and I was my best friend. We made a list of like why I should or shouldn't go out with the guy who asked me out. And it was like pros and cons. like, I, you know, that is just how I process the world is through the written word. And I think I just needed to process everything that I was thinking, which were like sort of big thoughts for.
Emma (21:58.315)
the
Erica Katz (22:10.855)
a mid-20s person with like a seemingly great life. And so I started to write and the topic of my writing was an inter-office affair at a law firm. And I think it was just my way of processing some of the relationships that I saw around myself. And the best thing about writing in my opinion is it's very hard to be judgmental if
Emma (22:13.114)
what are they?
Erica Katz (22:38.591)
when you're writing because you're writing from multiple perspectives. So I found that in writing about this affair, I was able to go into work a lot happier because I created like a person on the paper who was dissatisfied in his marriage and that's why he started, you know what I mean? And so it made me less judgmental of these people around me, be it true or not, but it served as a tool. But as I had...
more space and time, like I ferreted away like a couple hours here and there in the beginning. The story sort of like shifted away from that entirely and just focused on like a girl in a law firm and like tons of relationships that she was seeing and engaging in. it really didn't become, you know, it turned into not about an affair at all. And I think then, which was about
like maybe eight months to a year after I first sat down and just started like typing and I wrote on a computer. I was like, maybe this could be a book, right? And I don't know how to write a book, but I know that I need more time. And I started like devoting vacation time to it, which is like super sick. But again, it didn't feel like work. It felt like something feeding me. And so as far as I was concerned, I was like getting a great vacation out of it, right? Like I wasn't always on a beach doing it, but
Emma (24:00.65)
Hmm.
Erica Katz (24:02.921)
I started to take it more seriously and take time off of work and try to, I would like lie about where I was. I would say I was like going on a, I was like on a boat or whatever and I wasn't gonna have service. So like no one could bother me. And it wasn't weird if I didn't respond. Cause you were really like expected to respond on any vacation except your honeymoon. Like people left you, that was like the rule at the firm was like leave people alone. Yeah, no, I'm not kidding. Like leave people alone on their honeymoon and like,
Emma (24:25.578)
One time in your life, you'll get left alone. Yeah.
Erica Katz (24:32.586)
for maternity leave, but other than that, like you can bother people. And so I would have to like, try to like pretend I didn't have service and stuff. And I started to devote like chunks, like multiple days at a time to writing. And that's when I like really fell in love with it. I started, I remember there's just the characters.
that were like sort of based on like people I knew initially just became their own people. And suddenly they weren't based on people I knew, they were just their own people. And that's the part of writing I really fall in love with is the creation of these very complex individuals who I get to manipulate, which is so fun.
Emma (25:15.858)
And do you flesh those characters out as you write or do you like think about who these people are at the very beginning and really try to know them and then start writing a like narrative arc with that in mind?
Erica Katz (25:27.722)
So after I published my first book and started doing interviews, I became aware that there is a literary industry term for this, and it's called plotters or pantsers. And pantsers sort of like fly by the seat of their pants as they write, and plotters think about things before. I have tried, and I'm on my third book, I've tried so hard to be a plotter and it never...
works and regardless of outlines that I write or character bios that I create, those people never end up on my page and I just get to know my characters through their interactions with other characters and they become like wildly different people as soon as I start writing. Which means it takes me longer in my opinion and it all because I mean I'm not I mean
Emma (26:04.317)
Hmm.
Erica Katz (26:20.02)
I'm sure maybe if I publish like eight books, I'll become really good at this one day, but I still have to like go back and change people based on where they, who they end up being, right? And so I'm constantly like fleshing out earlier parts of my book to make it more poignant once I know my character.
Emma (26:37.307)
Yeah, well, I mean, whether it's writing a book or building a business or doing anything creative, think so often it is like, clarity comes to us as we take steps forward and as we go. And so it's interesting that there's this concept of like plotters and pantsers. But for me, I definitely agree like a pantser, it's like, you just got to get started and then you can go back and you can revise. And that's just a part of the creative process. And that's how you get to like the truest truth or what really resonates with you.
Erica Katz (26:51.892)
Total it.
Erica Katz (27:05.888)
Totally, and I mean, this is like, I'm having like an aha moment, but like based on how I've lived my life, like I've lived it like a pantser, right? Like sometimes you just have to like dive in. Sometimes you have to take the LSAT and go to law school and see where you end up. But yes, I write exactly how I live, which is I think I just have to like get my hands dirty and figure it out.
Emma (27:30.311)
Okay, so you were taking time off telling people you didn't have a service in your own about and devoting a few days at a time to writing. Were you also writing like in a couple hours in your week or on weekends when you could find it or you were really just like creating these chunks and just writing for days when you could find the time.
Erica Katz (27:46.655)
So it's a really good question. I am bad at writing in short spurts and I think it's because I just wanna get really deep into these characters. I think my books are really character driven, not so much plot driven. And it's something I'm struggling with now as a mom because I'm trying to get better at writing in discrete amounts of time. But at that point, I...
was maybe editing in discrete amounts of time, like just going back and trying to work on it when I had like, you know, several hours or whatever that I could devote to it. But I was writing when I had extended amounts of time, which I still need and I rarely get, which is a whole struggle we can talk about later. I was trying to do what I could in small amounts of time, but I was taking.
Emma (28:35.593)
Talk about.
Erica Katz (28:42.846)
larger amounts of time to do anything that I considered worthwhile. And it took me almost two years to write my first book because of that, because I couldn't take vacation every week, you know? And I worked weekends and...
Emma (28:56.969)
Yeah. How did you stick with it and maintain like belief and momentum through a two year period of time? Because I do think a lot of people would have this initial excitement and energy and idea, and then it's like, my gosh, and so I just want a vacation or it's taking too long and kind of put it down. You know, you hear that story so often. So how did you stay with it for that two year period of time?
Erica Katz (29:19.765)
Yeah.
Erica Katz (29:23.146)
So I think I enjoyed it, right? So it was an end in and of itself. But I also was aware that it was taking me so long because I had this other job that I wasn't ready, remotely ready to give up yet. I also think I got some really nice support early. There was like a publisher at Random House who
I mentioned what I was doing, he was super encouraging and anyone, and I never mentioned it to anyone in my personal sphere because I was like so scared of never following through with it. But anyone, I felt very lucky that anyone professionally that I ever sort of like mentioned anything to was so supportive. And I find anyone who has ever taken a chance creatively is so supportive of other people who are trying something new.
And, you know, and it took like months off because work would get really busy and life would happen and I did want a vacation. so, but I think if I hadn't gotten to the point that the characters started to feel real to me, there was a strong chance I probably would have stopped maybe, but the characters are who I fall in love with. And so like, it was like fun to spend time with those people.
whenever I could and that's what kept me going. And I think there was like a lesson to that, which is like, if you love what you do, you always find time to do it. In my first book, there's a line that's, there's like a young lawyer who sort of jokingly says like, would have never, to a more senior lawyer, like you would have never allowed me to get dinner with my boyfriend tonight. And he like very seriously looks at her and he's like, the big secret about busy people is like,
Emma (31:00.745)
Mm-hmm.
Erica Katz (31:21.341)
You have just enough time to do exactly what you want to do, right? Like you didn't want to get dinner with your boyfriend tonight. And I think that's a lesson that I learned, which is you will always make time for what you want to do, which is why like that's, that's like no one wants to admit it, but that's the real problem with like a friend or a partner who doesn't have time for you. Like all it means is they're not prioritizing you.
They're opting to not prioritize you.
Emma (31:52.777)
Yeah, I mean, that is a harsh reality or brutal truth, but it is a truth, right? We do make time to prioritize the things that are really important to us. And if we're consistently not prioritizing, it doesn't fall above the cutoff line of importance. And so it sounds like this was important, these characters you did fall in love with and you were willing to write more slowly in order to see it through, knowing that you were also prioritizing this lucrative
Erica Katz (31:57.097)
Totally. Yep.
Erica Katz (32:09.692)
Exactly.
Emma (32:22.492)
job alongside it. And it sounds like you didn't make yourself wrong for it taking two years. You didn't make yourself wrong in that process. You just allowed it to be something that you did get to enjoy and you did get to work in these incremental periods, even if you took months off in between. Is that right? Or were you struggling and battling yourself internally as you did?
Erica Katz (32:44.955)
So I think that...
I think that I was hard on my, I think that I wished it was moving faster, but I also, the thing about any creative process is like, it's never really done. So my book kept changing, right? And I kept thinking, like, could you imagine if I like went, tried to get a publisher or an agent for this like six months ago, it was a different book. And like, in my opinion, it was getting better.
It was becoming more about life and lessons than it was about a girl in a law firm. And I think that allowed me the peace of mind and the sort of the mental calmness to continue with it until I felt like it was in a place that I really was proud of. And I almost like...
Now, I have that lesson now as a writer, is allowing things to marinate is like probably never a bad thing. And your thoughts evolve and things occur to you if you leave them time to breathe. But time is a luxury that I think is so hard to come by, especially as a professional. And so the tension between wanting to complete a task and needing to be like,
needing to let creativity breathe is like just I think a fundamental tension of anyone who creates anything.
Emma (34:21.832)
Absolutely. So at what point did you say, okay, this is good enough to try to get an editor or publisher and like, what did that process actually look like?
Erica Katz (34:31.839)
So, it was, oh my God, when did Trump first run for president? 2016, is that right? Okay, so it was like 20, it was like 2013 maybe? And yeah, it must have been around 2013, 2014, and he was like saying things in the media about wanting to run, it was like sort of a joke, but like.
Emma (34:42.408)
16, yeah.
Erica Katz (35:01.311)
New Yorkers were sort of scared. there definitely was like a motion towards women's rights happening in general. And the book was like very much about a woman navigating a male dominated corporate world. And I just thought it was good. I thought it like was, I thought I read it and I thought this is good. And it's like zeitgeist, right? It's like capitalizing on sort of this like.
feeling that's happening in the world. I, I mean, my initial instinct was send, like no one gets books published, send a hundred million query letters to every single agent you could possibly think of. And then I was like, I don't have time for that. Like I have a job. So I always read on vacations, on planes, like whenever I could, even when I was working really hard, I always had a book that I often didn't finish, like because I was working so hard.
But the books that I liked, I picked like, I think I picked 10 of them and I Googled who the agent for those authors were and I wrote,
Emma (36:10.801)
That is so smart, Erica. You're like, I'm not gonna work hard, I'm gonna work smart. Let's find the people who would actually publish a book like this.
Erica Katz (36:12.979)
Thank you. Yeah, and I wrote, right, and I wrote 10 like really pointed query letters rather than one generic query letter that I was sending out to 100 people. So I literally would say like, dear Agent X, you represented this author in this book and my book is like in a similar vein for these reasons. And like I was really specific so they knew that I like read the book and.
had a brain and all of this. I just, I wanted anyone to read my material. And I was like really lucky. And I think I got back two responses. And one of them was like, was, you know the series, or the book, Sweet Bitter? It was like also a series on stars. And I thought it was such a great first time novel and it was, debut novel. And it was like the
best New York story. was like this waitress at this really cool downtown restaurant, Bouvette, had always been writing a novel. She like dropped the novel on this like Random House publishers like table that she always waited on him at. And she's like, look, I never do this, but like, I need you to read this. And like, suddenly she's signing like a million dollar deal with Random House or I think Knopf she went to or whatever. And it was like such a New York story. So her agent wrote back and she was basically like, this is like,
this might be something, but I'm going on maternity leave and sweep it or is becoming a star series and like, I don't have time for you. But the woman in the office next to me, like went to law school and like used to be a lawyer and can I give it to her? And I was like, I think I wrote back, yes, and hit send like the second I got the email. And I'm by the way, I like, I'm so
convinced that this is not gonna be anything because like, know, imposter syndrome and I'm a bad writer and like this note, this will never go anywhere that I'm still using like my personal Gmail. Like I haven't made a pen name or anything. So this woman writes back and she's like, you're not gonna believe this, but I read what you attached and I think there was really something there. It's really good. And I have a lot of suggestions, but also I was a summer intern.
Erica Katz (38:30.416)
at the law firm you were a summer intern for and remember when they sent us to LA on a retreat and like here's a picture of us next to each other and all this crazy, crazy stuff. Yeah, and so it felt very kismety and we went to lunch and she is my agent and she started her own agency a couple years ago and I followed her and she's been very patient while I like write complete crap because I've had two kids.
Emma (38:39.399)
Stop it.
Erica Katz (38:58.782)
but she's my agent and she was like my agent slash like editor. Like she made a ton of suggestions before we went to market. Like she was really working with me on my book and that is how I got my agent and she did everything else. She got me my editor and my debut novel like got sold to Netflix before it ever got sold to...
my god, HarperCollins, which is who published it. Like it was a crazy story. And at some point I was like, holy shit, I need a pen name because if this book like doesn't go anywhere for some reason, like the lawyer in me was like, it's not done until the contract is signed and the money is in your bank account. So I was like, my god, like I need a pen name because if my law firm finds out I wrote about a girl in a law firm, like they can fire me. And then the book sold and it was sort of a big enough deal that my law firm.
couldn't fire me because then that would be a story. So it was all.
Emma (39:57.465)
It sold under your name or under a pen name when you sold it?
Erica Katz (40:00.647)
It sold under a pen name, but I mean, I was doing like interviews and it was like in talks. It never went anywhere, but it was, yeah, it was like in talks to be a Netflix series. And so I had to tell them, but it was great. They couldn't really fire me. I stopped when I sold it. wasn't still like, feel like so many of your clients would identify with this, but I was not ready to like give up the health insurance and bi-weekly paycheck and.
Emma (40:06.267)
They saw your face, yeah.
Erica Katz (40:29.234)
big corporate title and all the technological infrastructure that comes with working at a huge firm that I was so addicted to. Like, know, my cell phone broke and it was like fixed in my office three seconds later. And you know, all these things that were perks in my life. And so I stayed at my firm even when I like wanted to be a writer, but I stopped practicing and I took like a more managerial role in my practice. a big, it was like a big ego hit. Like it was hard.
Even though I didn't want to do it, it was really hard for me to see these people who I used to work with becoming partner when I wasn't on that path anymore. So I had this really interesting trajectory and it took me having my first child to realize that I didn't want to do two jobs, which was work in a law firm and write novels. But in retrospect, like I don't know why I didn't give it up earlier and why I didn't just go for it with writing.
I had proof of concept, like I was good at it, but I was still just so scared that like maybe I wouldn't be good at it in the next time and.
Emma (41:35.687)
You're like, maybe I'm a one-hit wonder. Maybe this can't be, yeah.
Erica Katz (41:38.436)
Exactly, exactly. Which like I constantly think all the time, like maybe I'm a two-hit wonder, like maybe I'll never write a book again. I think that's sort of, like there was a period where I feel like everyone was talking about like how imposter syndrome is terrible and you know, like be proud and like be so like, you know, confident. And I actually think that the, like the little voice in my head that's like, you're not like,
Emma (41:43.536)
Yeah.
Erica Katz (42:08.275)
That's what fuels me. Like you're not as good as you think you are, or you're not as good as people think you are. And I don't think it's a bad thing. Like I think be humble and like work hard. And if that means that you're hedging your bets like a little in the beginning, then fine. But...
Emma (42:28.518)
But you didn't let that voice get so severe that it stopped you from creativity and from taking action. think oftentimes when we have that, if that's too loud and we're not able to like regulate through that, it just stops us in our tracks and we become frozen. So it sounds like you had enough of it to be like, I gotta see this through, I gotta actually finish the book, I gotta do another one, but not so much that you allow that to impede your creativity and taking action.
Erica Katz (42:54.006)
Yeah, and I think I wish someone said to me, we all feel that way, right? Even the most successful people, like, or I actually don't know, because I'm not the most successful person, but even people who have had success and like in changing paths or doing anything, like still like wonder about the next and whether they can do it again or, you know, whether they're washed up or...
whether everyone was somehow wrong about them, right? And like now everyone's gonna be right and see that they can actually do this thing that they're trying to do. Yes, but you can't let it get in the way. You just have to let it fuel you.
Emma (43:39.569)
So when you sold your book and then Netflix bought it, was that a sizable enough paycheck where you're like, okay, I could actually exit the law firm and not take a managerial role? Or was the managerial role, I talk with clients about a bridge job. It's like it might not be your dream job, but it is providing you an income and the safety and security and ability capacity-wise to do something on the side. What did that actually look like financially?
Erica Katz (44:08.552)
So it was enough. It would have been what I earned in several years doing what I was doing at the firm. But I was like firmly aware probably from like just being like a practical thinker and being in the business world. I was like firmly aware that writing another book would A take several years. So better cover several years. But B like I said, I wasn't so confident that I could do it again in several years.
And there were also like more practical considerations, like I was saying, the things that I became really addicted to, like I would have given up health insurance. I would have given up a lot of the travel perks that came with like having to go places and I always sort of like turn them into fun trips.
Emma (44:55.918)
And at that time, were you also single? So it's not like you had a partner who you could get on their health insurance.
Erica Katz (45:01.465)
Exactly. was told, by the way, part of the reason I think I was single was for so long was like I had these grand ambitions pretty early in my 20s about like wanting to write a book and you know, wanting to take vacation time to do this. And I think it always, you know, you have time for exactly what you want to have time for. And like if when I like wasn't into a guy, like I very quickly was like, I think I'd rather be writing, you know, so like peace. But I think I had
sort of grand plans that delayed my personal life for a little while. And I also have no regrets about that. Except I feel like I'm still having kids in like my early 40s and like I'm just probably more tired than I would have been if I were like 25. But other than that, yeah, that is my only regret is like I need more sleep.
Emma (45:38.638)
Hmm.
Emma (45:44.102)
Okay.
Like that's my own air got energy levels.
Emma (45:53.031)
But I think that that is amazing that like, even though you didn't have a partner or healthcare to rely on, and it makes a lot of sense why you took kind of a more phased approach to really transitioning and to build the proof point that this was something that you could rely on, hopefully as an income stream moving forward. So did you fully stay in this like managerial role and write your second novel fake while there before leaving?
Erica Katz (46:19.451)
Yes. Yes, is the short answer to the question. But I had my priorities straight, right? Like I knew I was passionate about writing and I was aware that the law firm was a supplemental income. And by the way, as it took me longer to write, it became my primary income, right? And it was a means to an end. And I think it made me far, it made me almost a better employee because
I didn't have to be passionate about it, right? It was my spending money. It was my way of not having to call my parents and be a starving artist.
Emma (46:58.822)
explain to them why they're what you are going to be a doctor or a lawyer.
Erica Katz (47:03.257)
Exactly, right, exactly. Explain why like, the professional degree that they made me get, like is being totally wasted and why I'm unemployed and my second novel is taking a while, right? So all of that made me like just calmer. And was it frustrating sometimes when I wished I could write, but my job was getting in the way like a hundred percent. because I was, all of these decisions that we're talking about now, we're like incredibly conscious, right?
Before that, was just like, was sort of fumbling my way through, but this became my way of maintaining a lifestyle while pursuing my passion, and I was like totally cool with it. And I was cool if it took me a little longer to write the book, and that's it. Like, I just, I felt like I had control over my life.
Emma (47:50.81)
And I think that's so important for people to hear because there are always trade-offs to the choices that we make, right? So it's like, you could have chosen to just quit, but then the trade-off would be a lot more pressure, a lot more questions from your parents, maybe anxiety about your income, and especially if that second book was taking longer versus choosing to stay and at least having that...
safety net and security while you built it. And so just looking at that and saying, there's no perfect option most of the time, right? We just get to choose and evaluate the trade-offs and make the choice that feels best to us.
Erica Katz (48:30.727)
Yes, and I also think, also, I completely agree with all of that. And I also just to add on, I think a lot of creative pursuits are really isolating, not podcasting, which is like, I think probably one of like the major things that I find so attractive about it. But like writing, physical art, like all of that is really insular. And,
The problem for me with quitting my day job would have been I'd be stuck in a room with my thoughts and I worried and I would have been right that I would feel uninspired because all you have to do is focus on your creative pursuit then, but I'm really inspired by the world around me and the people I meet and going to a huge office every day was really beneficial for my writing.
Emma (49:21.541)
So when you finish writing fake, you're with the same book agent and that got sold right away like the same publisher.
Erica Katz (49:30.791)
Same publisher, same team of women, which was amazing.
Emma (49:37.956)
Amazing.
Erica Katz (49:41.563)
I'm sorry you froze, or did I freeze?
Emma (49:44.706)
Sorry, it does that sometimes, but we're back. Okay, so same team. So then you sell that and now you have a second proof point that, okay, I'm making money, I'm a real published author now, two times over. And is it at that point that you decided to leave or you mentioned earlier having your first child, like talk to us about that.
Erica Katz (49:46.254)
I see you. Hi.
Erica Katz (50:06.855)
So I was, when fate came out, I was engaged and I was like 37 and my fiance and I had spoken about wanting to have kids quickly and again, my really practical brain kicked in and I was like, I'm not gonna quit because I probably won't turn out another book like before.
before we get married. And then it'd be really nice to continue to get paid on maternity leave. And I was like a really hard worker. So I had like so much vacation saved up. And I think I sort of knew my plan, but I ended up tacking on my vacation days to maternity leave. So I had like, I think almost seven months of paid maternity leave. And yeah, and I had, it was amazing. And I...
Emma (50:59.033)
anything.
Erica Katz (51:03.962)
I didn't have any qualms about doing this because I felt like I had given so much to this law firm that I should take what the corporate plan offered me. I thought about it emotionally for a second, and then I thought about it intellectually, and I was like, I'm gonna take all this. I'm gonna make sure that whoever's covering for me on maternity leave wants my job, right? And she did.
and I didn't tell her she had it, but I made sure she was like super set up to take over for me. Like I wasn't screwing anyone, but I sort of knew I wasn't going back. So we took seven months of maternity leave and my law firm was like a very stand up place. So I think at five months, I had a conversation with them about how I probably wasn't coming back. And I felt really bad doing it, but I also knew it had been.
five months without me. So like they weren't going to skip a beat and just like can there was nothing that was waiting for me to come back for maternity leave at that point. And then the best thing happened, which was they actually gave me a Christmas bonus anyway. And I like to think it was just like, thanks for doing everything in a stand up way. Like you didn't leave anyone high and dry. But it like made me feel like fine about it, which was really nice. I mean, I already quit and they gave me a
Emma (52:17.057)
Hmm
Erica Katz (52:24.156)
Christmas bonus, which was really nice. Yeah, it was like really nice.
Emma (52:24.652)
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, and probably a testament to the relationship that you built there over many years and the hard work that you've done and yeah, the standup way that you showed up and to get that back to it almost feels like this nice closing of that chapter that you can leave it in a really good place.
Erica Katz (52:41.016)
Yes. Yes. And, you know, I had one child at that time and then I was writing and frustratingly didn't finish a book and had another child. And I think I now have the knowledge that if I had continued, if I had continued trying to write and be a lawyer, I would never see my kids. Like, those are two jobs. And so I chose to just
be a writer and be able to see my kids, take them to doctor's appointments when they need, be there if like, you know, for allergic reactions or bee stings even, like the little things. And also this book is taking a really long time. And I say out loud to my husband all the time, like, you know, they say pregnancy and childbirth like changes your brain. Like, what if it changed me out of being a writer? Like these are...
things that I say out loud and things that are even worse in my head, right? Like it feels even worse than that in my head, because that's what I'm saying out loud to my husband. And I am still navigating how to have good writing days when, you know, our caregiver is sort of like texting me, like, and I, you know, I cannot turn off my phone now, right? I'm a mom and, and I wonder if the kids are napping and I wonder if they're eating and.
And I just always have like my phone here and I think it's really hard for me to dive in the way I used to, not to mention the fact that I have like a hard stop at 5.30. And I have a husband who I want to and also need to talk to and spend time with every night after the kids are asleep. And there are just so many more directions I'm being pulled in and I could not be happier. Like it's all good.
Emma (54:15.448)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (54:29.7)
Yeah.
Erica Katz (54:32.536)
I'm very fortunate that like financially we've planned enough that I don't need to write this book right now. And I really am scared and I hope that I write it one day. But for now, this is like everything I this is everything I wanted. And so it is what it is.
Emma (54:47.5)
Yeah, and almost allowing for that to be a priority in this season of life where you have young kids and trust that you can keep chipping away at it and that you have this next novel in you and I'm sure many more, but it can be hard to like hold that belief in seasons where it feels challenging or it feels like we have shifted our brain chemistry, right? But I have no doubt that that's gonna make you...
Erica Katz (55:10.427)
Yes.
Emma (55:13.952)
and even more incredible writer in many ways too, having that experience.
Erica Katz (55:19.824)
I hope so. And I try to remind myself that the whole impetus for my choosing this path was that the lifestyle of a corporate lawyer was not what I wanted long term. I didn't want to be, such a huge part of me starting to write was the desire not to be an absentee family member, like I saw. And so I just try to settle into that when I start to panic or wish things were different, which I do sometimes.
Emma (55:32.068)
This is...
Emma (55:47.044)
You're like, this is my choice, these are my values, this is what I wanted. Doesn't mean it's not still challenging.
Erica Katz (55:51.14)
Yeah, and it doesn't mean that sometimes they don't like, yeah, right? Like if we're being totally honest, like you know this, because I asked if we could start the podcast a little early, but like I planned on writing all afternoon and my daughter has like really bad infant eczema and we got into this great dermatologist. So like now my afternoon, I will not write for these four hours. I will probably be waiting at a dermatologist and regardless, I won't have enough time to write anyway, but these are my choices and.
Most of the time I'm really happy with them.
Emma (56:23.916)
And do you write from home or do you write away? Like when you have childcare, it sounds like full-time and then you're writing outside. What does that look like?
Erica Katz (56:35.919)
So I have to get out of my apartment to write. And our son, who's like just like two and a half, is in like a two's program. So he's, it's not even that he, which at one point he was, would like try to come in and wouldn't allow me to write, but it's just a mental space thing I need to get out of my home to write. There's no clutter. We have a common space in the building that...
I sit and I write and sometimes there are other people in here which I don't mind at all. But you can rent it out if you ever need like private space and yeah, so I'm literally one minute away if I ever need to be a mom, but I have my own space.
Emma (57:06.692)
you
Emma (57:22.69)
Amazing. you know, yeah, and I think that so many women, when they do transition to motherhood, it can be just like such a radical awakening and upheaval and re-prioritizing, but it actually sounds like you knew that that was a value of yours very early. You were making decisions with that in mind. You actually set yourself up to have this flexibility in this chapter by...
Erica Katz (57:24.27)
It is. It's a great setup.
Emma (57:50.21)
writing through vacations and in the gaps that you could. you know, while sure, I'm sure there's a part of you that's like, wow, it would be so much easier if I could have all of my bandwidth and mental capacity just to write. It sounds like there's also a deep like gratitude and appreciation for past versions earlier versions of yourself that set you up to be in this place. And I'm sure that
Erica Katz (58:11.47)
Yes.
Emma (58:14.379)
in the future when you have that third novel published, you'll also be able to look back and be so grateful that you were able to design your life in this way through this season.
Erica Katz (58:24.247)
Ugh, I hope. I hope that I listen to this podcast and I'm like, Emma was right. That would be so great.
Emma (58:28.387)
We'll circle back when that comes out. I'm also curious, because you are not on social media in any way, right? And you wrote your second novel kind of about this concept of like fakeness. And can you tell us a little bit more about what drove that and also your decision to not be on social media?
Erica Katz (58:40.282)
right.
Erica Katz (58:55.237)
So I was on social media when I wrote my second book and I think it's always something that I've struggled with. I graduated college in 2006. So Facebook came out when I was a sophomore, I think. And all this to say, like, I didn't grow up with it the way some people did. And I made it through most of college not really, like, checking it. Like, I wasn't really into it.
Emma (59:18.627)
Mm-hmm.
Erica Katz (59:26.351)
I feel like in the past maybe two or three years, given the political climate, the geopolitical climate, international politics, like, like I feel pretty strongly and I'm not, I'm not really like one for hugely declarative statements in case you haven't noticed, like I'm pretty like, you know, non-judgmental. I feel like really certain that
like Instagram and TikTok are like destroying people's ability to think critically. And I am not just blowing smoke. Like I think podcasts might be saving things. Like I hope podcasts are the new things that are the new thing that saves critical thinking and lo-fi long form, getting to know each other, talking about complex issues. But the world just can't.
Emma (01:00:08.291)
you
Erica Katz (01:00:24.963)
It's too complex to be broken down into 10 second, 20 second sound bites. Worse just photos that obviously are so easy to manipulate or misrepresent things. And I just became, which is again, like really something that I've never done before in my life. Like I'm a pretty positive person, like so disgruntled that I just deleted everything one day. And it is so hard to permanently not.
emotionally hard. is like, you are asked if you are serious about permanently deleting an account like 400 times before you are allowed. Like it is like physically difficult. You have to push so many buttons. And then constantly people are like, are you still on Facebook? Like you just came up for me. And I'm pretty sure like Facebook and Instagram, like continue to serve your like image even after you've permanently deleted an account like.
Emma (01:01:00.611)
hahahaha
Emma (01:01:16.707)
you
Erica Katz (01:01:21.883)
but I just actually, don't want anything to do with it. I don't, and my like hope for it is that, because I'm an adult and I can become disgruntled with it, but kids who are growing up with it, I think it is really, really hard for them. And my hope is that by the time my kids are old enough to use it, there will be like real legal.
Emma (01:01:25.24)
Yeah.
Erica Katz (01:01:51.163)
parameters around the use of it, or it'll just be more regulated because I think it's out of control right now.
Emma (01:01:58.606)
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. like in starting my business initially, like I got on Instagram and was, you know, trying to be consistent and posting. I just, like you said, like I missed like the long form nuance discussion and being able to break down an idea. And I just didn't feel that that format was serving me to create it, but or, you know, my audience and followers to even consume it. So that was such a big motivation behind
switching more of my focus and energy to the podcast. And yes, I'm still on there, but I'm far less active because I agree. It's like, is this actually furthering the way I want our society to be or to think or the way I want to create? And so I think it's amazing that you could just stand in that in your truth and your values and see, okay, I feel disgruntled. I should make another choice here and exit that.
Erica Katz (01:02:50.361)
Right.
Like if hopefully I write another book and my publisher is like, need social media, like, I don't know what I'm gonna do or maybe I'll just hire someone to do it, but like, I don't wanna be on.
Emma (01:03:03.319)
Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love this conversation so much. Okay, I want to close with a rapid fire five questions, if that's okay, before we before we wrap up. So what does what does conscious success mean to you?
Erica Katz (01:03:13.391)
Great.
Erica Katz (01:03:18.874)
I think conscious success is being able to wake up every morning and not dread any of the big things on your to-do list. I've had that feeling of dread and I think that's just the opposite of success.
It's a low bar, not dreading, but I'm phrasing it in the negative because I think as soon as you're there, like everything else becomes so positive. Like it is a really low bar, just not, you don't have to love everything, but don't have anything that you really don't want to do that you have to dig into every day. I think that's success.
Emma (01:04:02.646)
I couldn't agree more. And that that dread is an indication that something's out of alignment and you get to be empowered enough to change it because life in your career shouldn't feel full of dread.
Erica Katz (01:04:10.906)
Correct.
Right, and it doesn't need to feel like, just like pure joy every day, but if you don't dread something, the joy comes.
Emma (01:04:17.921)
No.
Emma (01:04:21.664)
Absolutely. Okay, so even the people that we admire most, like you are still growing and evolving, what is one area of your life where you're currently being stretched or learning something new?
Erica Katz (01:04:32.942)
I learn something new in parenthood every single day, but I think for the purposes of this podcast, I wanna say learning how to be a writer when I am in love with my other commitments is really hard. I've never had so many things that I actually wanna do that spark joy and figuring, and I feel like I'm maybe like,
a B, a B plus at everything and I'm really used to being an A at the things that I want to do and when you have so many things on your plate, I think I'm just struggling with knowing you can't do it all, all the time or at least it doesn't look the way you thought it would. So I'm trying to get better at writing when I can and not being too hard on myself.
Emma (01:05:26.612)
Yeah, and it's a beautiful problem to have to have so many things that spark joy, but also a hard one when it feels like you're used to being an A and now you're a B plus and to not have guilt or self beat about that, but to be able to just accept that that's what that looks like. And this is you doing your best in these various areas. It's a challenge for sure, but I think that's such an honest one that so many mothers face.
Erica Katz (01:05:32.473)
Yes.
Erica Katz (01:05:51.406)
Yes.
Emma (01:05:53.321)
Is there, I'm sure there are many, but what is a book that has stuck with you over the years that you continue to reread or one that you always recommend to us?
Erica Katz (01:06:03.163)
Carole Lovering, who is a friend, wrote this book called Tell Me Lies, which is a series. In my opinion, I mean, she's an executive producer on their series, so I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but the book is so good. Like the abusive relationship in it is a lot darker. I sort of love that book. The book when I was little that I read all the time was
Emma (01:06:23.542)
Hmm.
Erica Katz (01:06:32.826)
Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon and it was like the first time I remember experiencing a culture that I never would have been in if it weren't through a book and I became sort of obsessed with that. mean, it was said in the South, it was, you know, I was like a white kid from New Jersey. just like, it was just so amazing to me. It was so lyrical and like all these people spoke in like poems and I just.
It rocked my world and it's probably a big part of why I'm such a big reader and maybe a writer.
Emma (01:07:04.386)
I love it, I haven't read it. Okay, so that's definitely on my list. Who is someone in your world today who you admire for how they live, lead or succeed and what is it about them that inspires you?
Erica Katz (01:07:18.458)
Gosh, like I like to think that I surround myself with only people that I admire. You I think one of the many luxuries of getting older and choosing your path is that you get to sort of cut the fat out of your life. Like you don't need that purely fun friend that treats you like shit or like. But my husband, Daniel,
has like a very different brain from my own, but he runs a business and his ability to juggle and to, it's mostly his ability to deal with employees and their issues. And he has a lot of employees and regardless of how busy he is, if something is happening in an employee's personal life, A, they always feel comfortable like emailing him.
or at least HR knows that he wants to know. And he always like wants to talk about it with me. Like genuinely, his brain is consumed with anything happening with his employees that's negative in like this really genuine way that he'll like come home and talk about it with me at dinner. And I feel like I, when I was working so hard, like lost my humanity a little.
and he just never does. And I think it's such an amazing way to lead is to always be able to spend time on what's important, which is people and their lives. And he's so good at
Emma (01:08:47.041)
you
Emma (01:09:00.065)
That's amazing, that's so inspiring. And I think, I hope more of us get to work for people like that or become the kind of leaders who treat people like that. Cause the world certainly needs more of it. That's incredible. If you could give your 10 year old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
Erica Katz (01:09:10.446)
Yes.
Erica Katz (01:09:17.774)
God.
Probably don't be in such a rush. I think I was just always in such a rush, like to grow up and get out of my house when I was in high school, but my parents are so cool. And, you know, I do have such a good relationship with them, but I think senior year of high school was just so hard for me, because I was like, get me out of here, like I'm an adult. And even at 10, like I always wanted to do everything myself, and I think it would just be slow down, like.
People have been around longer than you and they can help you. And I still struggle with that. Like I still wanna do everything my own way. I can be really stubborn and yeah, I think I just need to slow down sometimes.
Emma (01:09:56.523)
Yeah.
Emma (01:10:06.241)
Yeah, it's amazing giving yourself or 10 year old self that advice and your present day self that advice at the same time. Yeah.
Erica Katz (01:10:11.854)
Yeah, like I'm the same person still. Yeah, it's like a character flaw in my opinion. But you have those flaws from when you were little, right? And I see it in my son who like in my eyes is perfect, but he is like, he doesn't want help from anyone ever, you know? And I'm like, no, don't be like me when it comes to that.
Emma (01:10:30.229)
Mm-hmm.
And I think there are gifts that come with those character traits and underbellies of it, right? It's a double edged sword, both. Okay, final, final question. What is a piece of advice you would give to our listeners if they're currently working a corporate job, but they have another passion or an idea or something that they want to pursue? Like, what would you tell them?
Erica Katz (01:10:39.201)
Yes. Yes.
Erica Katz (01:10:55.661)
I think maybe it's two things. First and foremost, my wholehearted advice is do it, right? Pursue it. It doesn't have to look so drastic. You can do it on the side. You can do it in small increments before you have your footing. And like, I'm a lawyer. I'm risk averse. Like I had two jobs for a really long time because of that, because of my risk aversion.
But there are probably very few jobs you couldn't go back to if you leave under the right respectful circumstances. But try, pursue your passion. You will never, ever, ever regret it. And then the second thing that I hope everyone knows, which is what I always have to tell myself, and I I've mentioned this to you, Emma, succeeding like,
doesn't feel like succeeding for a really long time. Like it often feels like failing for a really long time. When I was writing while working, it just felt like I was being silly and ruining my vacation time and doing something that would never turn into anything. And even after, by the way, like I sold my first book and my mom was like, do we call you a writer now or a lawyer? I'm like, I don't.
just be happy, like, I don't know. so like, it just doesn't feel as, as clearly a success as so many, like mass consumption stories will have you believe like the real like, like, you know, unicorn startup stories. I don't think success is always that clear and
Emma (01:12:23.295)
Ha ha!
Erica Katz (01:12:48.715)
In my opinion, if you're doing what you love, that is already successful and it already can be branded as success. just pursue your passion. Everything looks sunnier when you are doing something you love.
Emma (01:13:02.495)
Hmm. Such good advice and I couldn't agree more. And when you look at a life where you don't dread anything in it and you're able to like pay your bills and your cover your fundamental needs and do what you enjoy, like that is absolutely a success. And we don't need to stack even higher expectations on top of it. But if you are doing that, you're right on the money. Yeah. Thank you so much, Erica. I have love this conversation. I know everyone who's
Erica Katz (01:13:25.112)
Yes.
Emma (01:13:30.953)
listening will to, I know you're not on social media, but where can listeners stay connected with you, buy your books, like tell us where that is.
Erica Katz (01:13:40.771)
So my website is erikacatsbooks.com and it has links to my two most recent publications and I'm on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and every other, hopefully small independent bookshop. I mean, I think you are like set for this podcast being broadcast to way more than your clients, but if you have Emma's information and
you are interested in writing in particular and have questions, like Emma can give you my info. And like I said, people are really supportive of me to begin with. like I will always, I've never, I've never ignored a, I'm writing a book email. So go for it.
Emma (01:14:25.281)
That is so kind, I'm sure. And I hope that people will take you up on that. Thank you for just your openheartedness, your truthfulness, talking about the messy process of pursuing your creative passions on the side of a demanding job and seeing that through. And it's so inspiring. So thank you for sharing your story with us.
Erica Katz (01:14:46.915)
Thank you for having me, this was so wonderful.
