Emma Lloyd (02:25)
Hi Tamara, I'm so excited to have you on and be having this conversation with you today. Thank you for being here.
Tamar Hermes (02:30)
Thanks so much. I'm excited to get into it.
Emma Lloyd (02:32)
Yes. So, so many of the women that I work with, that I coach, that listen to this podcast are super high achieving in the top 1%, you know, quarter of a million plus a year. And yet so often when I talk to these women, there is such a story or a lived reality that they feel like they can't afford to make another choice. They can't afford to have the career that they actually want. They feel very trapped by golden handcuffs and it can feel
so visceral and it can feel so true. And so trying to understand what if that is actually self-protective and rational and safe and how much of that is a story that oftentimes can be based on how we were raised or how we saw our parents handle money and everything else to be able to, with everything on this podcast, return us to our power so that at least we have choice. And I know that you work with these same high achieving women to move from being financially successful
to financially free, which I love so much. So I'm just so excited to be able to have this conversation with you and just talk about such an important topic because finances are a fundamental part of success. It's not the whole thing, but we need to be able to know and address and have these types of conscious conversations. So again, thank you so much for making the time.
Tamar Hermes (03:47)
I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled to get into this conversation. And money is a really important topic. It's one that I find can end up really controlling a lot of the decisions that we make. And especially, you know, when we're talking about conscious success, we really want to be mindful in terms of how money is playing a role for us, because we don't want money to dictate our entire lives while it is an important element in the world that we live in. We want to be able to live full.
satisfying, gratifying lives.
Emma Lloyd (04:16)
100%. And I often talk about with conscious success, money should be the thing that we earn enough of to live into our values, but not that we're chasing so much that we then abandon our values. And sometimes it can be very hard to figure out where that line actually is and how we set ourselves up for true conscious success. excited to dive in more to that in a little bit, but I love to kind of start with an origin story. And in your case, really understanding what was your origin story, particularly around money.
because I think as we've discussed, the way we saw it modeled, how it was in our families can so much determine whether it feels scarce or abundant. It often doesn't have to do with the actual number in our bank account. We think, if I just have more, then I'll feel safe. But I've played that out and seen that enough times to know that that's not the actual lived reality. So can you tell us a little bit about your origin story around money and what that looked like in your family growing up?
Tamar Hermes (05:10)
Absolutely. I grew up in a family that did not have a lot of money. My father was a Holocaust survivor. My mom was a pioneer in Israel. They grew up to learn to survive. And survival was really the rule of the day. It wasn't about how do we build a satisfying career? How do we make the most of our lives? It was really like, how do we pay the bills and make sure we have food on the table and a roof over our heads?
And so there was a scarcity feeling, even though for them, coming from where they came from, it felt very much like, hey, survival is pretty valuable. And when you come from an upbringing like that, you are very grateful for survival. And when you're brought up in Los Angeles, where I was, I was looking around thinking, wow, a lot of people have a lot of things and what's this all about? How do they have these things? Now,
The piece that was missing for me too in the upbringing was that my parents weren't great communicators. So they didn't say, hey, having money is not everything. So all I saw around me was, I guess, if you have money, you get to go on great trips and you get to live in a nice house and you get to buy roller skates and do all the things. And so there was already this feeling of scarcity and being less than. And all I wanted was
the comforts that I saw other people have that looked inviting to me. And so my whole career, everything that I started out doing was all around how can I get this resource to live the life that I want? And so when I graduated from college, I ended up getting a job in entertainment. I became an executive in entertainment. I was making the multiple six figures. And like probably a lot of the listeners, I thought, well, I should be pretty happy.
And the truth is that I had a lot of variables that made me happy. I liked the fact that I could travel. I liked the fact that I could pay my bills, all the golden handcuffs. And it was a good job, but it wasn't really what I wanted in my soul. It was not my conscious success. My conscious success was me being able to wake up in the morning and deciding, how do I want to spend this day today? Me being an entrepreneur. And I was not an entrepreneur.
And so I really had to...
come to terms with the feelings that I was in a conflict of, wow, I have this job and how do I get out of this job? And the way that I started thinking about it was, well, what are other wealthy people doing? And so what I saw was that wealthy people owned real estate. And so I took $40,000 out of my bank account and I bought a duplex. And that was when my real estate...
ventures started. And from there I started to see, okay, I see how I can create more freedom for myself. So that started my journey on to how do I pivot out of the nine to five, so to speak, career.
Emma Lloyd (08:08)
Okay, so interesting and so much in there that I want to touch on. you mentioned your father was a Holocaust survivor, your mom was a pioneer in Israel as, was kind of in its infancy and that there was all this scarcity. And then you were in LA growing up where there was also a ton of ultra wealth and extravagance. And so did you feel like less than and that that was the prized value to go after where you
Tamar Hermes (08:18)
Yes.
Emma Lloyd (08:35)
consciously orienting to that through schooling in your early career, or what made you go into entertainment and what made you realize that you wanted to be an entrepreneur instead? Because especially for someone from a lot of financial scarcity, entrepreneurship can feel, yeah, there's upside, but there's also a lot of risk, right? Like I can, I know for me personally, growing up with an entrepreneur as a father,
Tamar Hermes (08:55)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Lloyd (09:00)
I really had to do a lot of work to work through that to be able to allow myself to pursue that. So I'm curious about that path and whether or not you had to do any type of work even to admit the entrepreneurial desire to yourself when you had this like safe and quote unquote successful path.
Tamar Hermes (09:17)
100 % and you're really hitting on one of the key marks in terms of how do we decide when we're going to leave a comfortable position that's good, but just doesn't feel totally aligned or great. And for me, what it came down to was I just got sick and tired of being sick and tired. It was just at the end of the day, whatever my true North was,
was more important for me to take whatever chances I needed to take in order to get to that place. And that gave me the courage to take the risk because it was just a non-negotiable for me. Because I asked myself, in 10 years or in 20 years, and there are people in entertainment that I knew that I worked with that are still in the departments that I worked in. And I...
did not want that life. Like to me, I was like, if it's 20 years later and I'm there, that is a hard no for me. So that's the first thing is that making the leap, yes, it's so scary and so hard and so challenging and being an entrepreneur is scary and hard and challenging and they're both super rewarding and super invigorating because you're walking a path that is in your heart.
And that is the most important thing, ultimately, in your life. It's not ultimately going to be, great, I had this safe job, and I did what I was supposed to do, and I was too afraid to try to do anything else, even though I could see other people around me doing it. So that was the first thing. As far as scarcity as a kid and looking around, I didn't mention the fact that my parents also thought it would be a great idea for me to go to Beverly Hills School. So they actually used a friend's address.
Back in the day, you could do this. You could get away with this where you would use a friend's address and say your kids were part of the Beverly Hills school system. So not only was I looking around at people with resource, I was looking around at people that were the wealthiest of the wealthy resource. And so, yes, I definitely felt less than. And even though...
I prefaced it with the fact that my parents didn't have great communication skills based on the way that they were brought up and the generation that they were in. So I never had the conversations around, know, money isn't everything. You had said that early on in the conversation that money is necessary, but it's not really the North Star. We want money for the things that allows us to do, for the life it allows us to live.
And I didn't get that conversation. So I had to make my own conversation around it. And what I saw was there's haves and there's have nots. And I didn't understand anything in between. So I spent a lot of my life feeling less than. And then in terms of going into entertainment, what happened for me was that I was looking for the most
exciting profession I could come up with that was working for the system because that was what we did. We had to go get a job. There was no entrepreneurship. There was no idea of starting your own business. There was no real estate. All of that I figured out on my own. This was 30 years ago. So I wasn't in a situation where I was able to...
go on the internet or ask AI or do any of the things that we have today. I was literally just scrambling, praying and just determined to keep walking the path that was true for me.
Emma Lloyd (12:36)
Yeah, mean, so much that you said in there, I love the, inner voice is saying like, this ain't it, right? But I love what you're talking about. I think so often we can dilute ourselves into thinking at some point, it's not going to feel scary. It's not going to feel risky. It's not going to feel stretchy to follow my dreams or follow that calling and trust that even if I don't know the exact path to get from A to Z.
And that's just not true, right? Anyone who has built anything and that they're proud of or gone on the entrepreneurial path has had to learn how to tolerate the risk and keep going, right? To tolerate the fears and to regulate them and to keep moving towards that vision, listening to that voice rather than overriding it. And honestly, so much of my work with clients at Conscious Success comes down to that. Are you letting the fear-based voice drive?
or are you letting the desire-based voice drive? And so oftentimes it has to kind of get to a fever pitch or some type of breaking point to be like, am at that point where I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired and I'm going to follow desire. Was there any particular moment where that all kind of landed for you, a quote unquote rock bottom, if you will, or was it just like increased voice and increased volume on that voice that eventually you're like, okay, I surrender, I will listen?
Tamar Hermes (13:51)
I think what it is is a combination of the determination and working with your courage to keep moving forward and actually taking tactical action. and that's the way women growing wealth works too, is that I'm looking at the tactical skills of how do we grow wealth and also the emotional parts so that they can work together. So for me, what happened was while I was really feeling desperate and knowing
that I didn't want to stay in this entertainment career, I kept searching, I kept looking. How are people making money? What are people doing? And then I thought, wow, my landlord is taking rent from me and he works in entertainment. So maybe I could get a place and I could take rent from someone and then I could lower my overhead. So being able to take that step, it was just one step, one clear step that got me forward that actually
Emma Lloyd (14:38)
Mmm.
Tamar Hermes (14:43)
parts the waves for us to get to a new path. That was really what started to change things for me. And I think what happens as an entrepreneur, if that is in your soul and you're listening to this, is that there's an invigorating feeling in terms of carving your own path, in terms of being a person in the world
who is actually saying, know what, this is the life I want, this is the independence I want, this is the business that I want. And even as I face challenges and as I don't reach goals that I wanna reach or as things are harder than I want them to be, I feel like I'm in the arena.
And I think that's what we all want. Like the Brene Brown saying, the people that are in the arena are the ones who really are, you're scarred in your bruise, but you're in it. So that's the question that I always ask myself. Am I in the arena of my life without comparing to other people? Am I in my arena? And I definitely think that money can play a big role in that because
Emma Lloyd (15:30)
I love that quote.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tamar Hermes (15:54)
Money is the overarching piece that we all need in order to pay our bills, in order to send our kids to school, in order to survive, in order to have the house, all of the life necessities. And so it's tied so directly into our survival, into our quality of life. I think because of the way
that money's been delivered to most of us, which is that it needs to be hard and you have to sacrifice and it doesn't grow on trees and all of the scarcity and negativity around it taints our ability to see clearly, to actually be in our arena because we're in the arena and here we are with our soul and then we're like, but I need money, but where's the money?
And so there is an element of trust that needs to come into play. And more and more, one of the things that I wish I had over time sooner has to do with my personal practice, has to do with how I treat myself, how I find my own enough inside of my soul so that I can feel the enough with money so that I can know that my capacity to bring value into the world is there so that I can.
see the numbers clearly and not create a situation where I feel like I will be destitute because the truth is most of us are not going to end up homeless. Most of us, darkest fear, our fears that we have been taught about money, we're far away from that.
Emma Lloyd (17:23)
Yeah, and yet they can still feel so viscerally true to us, right? It can still feel like, oh my gosh, if I didn't have this corporate paycheck, then I would be out on the street, even if it's irrational. And I love that your book blends the emotional with the tactical. And what you're talking about, like your first step was, okay, I'm gonna take $40,000 of savings and I'm gonna put it into a duplex and I'm gonna start to reduce my overhead or have some income coming in that's not from.
corporate and I often talk to clients about figuring out your transition track or your glide path out of corporate if that's something that you want. And very often clients will say, well, I can't afford to walk away from my corporate job. And it's like, okay, well, how can we build that incrementally? Because even if that might be true today, it doesn't need to be true forever. But what we have to start to do is to look consciously and intentionally about, okay, well, how could we start some revenue streams or pull back on spending
or reprioritize things for a period of time in order to get that exit path. And it's not to say that how much you make in year one of doing your own thing is going to be what you make in year five or year 10. It likely won't be. But it's probably not going to replace your corporate income, especially if you are in that 1 % immediately. And yet that keeps so many people stuck where they're like, I can't replace it immediately. Therefore, I never can.
Therefore, I have to stay here forever. And so it sounds like you didn't just accept that as a fact. You were like, OK, well, my landlord also works in entertainment. He owns this building. So I could do the same thing. Can you talk to us from there about what did you start to put in place? How did you start to build the portfolio? What did that actually look like once you decided to leave your job in entertainment? What did you focus on doing? Were you clear that you wanted to build?
you know, women's wealth mentorship from the start or should not come yours down the line?
Tamar Hermes (19:13)
Not at all.
I also want to add a great line, which is that we overestimate what we can get done in one year. We underestimate what we can do in three years. And I think just that's a great line just to remember that we do have more time than we think we have. And it's the same thing with investing. And again, I mean, that leads really nicely into
portfolio building with real estate, is that wealth building in the truest form will work with you as you're going through your life. It takes some time. If you wanna do it really fast, you're taking big risks. And when you swing for the fences, we know how that can turn out. But the thing is, that you start with one.
you start with one property or you start with one move and then you incrementally start to build. what I want to say is that there needs to be a component of trust in yourself and in your capability, because a lot of this has to do with our capacity, right? And it's also, capacity with money is a whole other equation that feeds into that. But our capacity, our trust in ourselves,
is what is our guiding light. And we need to surrender to that because if you don't trust yourself, you're never gonna get to the next place. So for me, I bought one property, I did not know what I wanted to do, but what I did was I started to reduce my expenses. So like I said, now I had a tenant that was paying part of my rent, so I didn't have as high of an overhead to feed my roof over my head.
And from there, made some space where I had a little bit of savings and I could take some time to think and figure out what I wanted to do. Because sometimes what happens is like we leave one thing, we're rushing into the next thing. So I love the way you're talking about the pivot saying, okay, you don't have to leave tomorrow and look for the good in what you're doing right now and know that you're working towards something else. You can even
start to build a business while you're in your other company. I know these kinds of positions are demanding, but you can find time. Kelly Roach, who runs multi-million dollar companies, but she teaches sales. And she always says that she built her first eight figure business out of her car. She was a sales executive.
and then she would go in lunch and she would just call people and start making her business. So there's always a way, if we're intentional, to start making incremental steps. And I bought one property and then I had to save up and then I get another one. I was extremely conservative. I talk about it in my book, Millionaire's Mentality, that I was not a bold investor. I was not like, let's go get them. I got this. I was very timid and worked really slowly.
Some of that I wish I would have kept because I've made bold moves that have lost me money. But I like to say you know if you're incremental and you stay the course and you trust boy you can really get anywhere that you want to go both with money and with a career that is fitting your soul.
Emma Lloyd (22:10)
Yeah, and I love that you've touched on that self-trust piece because it is so fundamental. It's non-negotiable to being able to create conscious success, to be able to trust a future version of you to meet the moment, whatever comes, and to be able to figure that out. Like you're in that place of like, okay, and if that thing comes to pass that I fear, I'm gonna be able to meet the moment. I'm gonna be able to respond to it. I trust myself too, right? Then we can actually start.
moving from a place of creativity and empowerment and clarity and action, right? And until we can trust that, then we just stay frozen and we stay in the same place. So I love that you're talking about that, because I think that's just like so fundamental and that also it does take time, right? It takes time to build wealth. It takes time to build a business. It takes time to grow a family. Like anything that...
is really worth having takes time. We live in this culture where we think that everything should be like instantaneous, click a button, have it at your door. And so it's sometimes hard or we really like fight against that. But then we also look at, you for so many of my high achieving listeners, we went to school for how long and worked our way up for how long and we were okay with that taking time. But yet we don't give ourselves that same permission when it's on an entrepreneurial path or when it's on building our wealth outside of
receiving that corporate paycheck. And it sounds like your path and what you advise a lot of clients and been very real estate focused in terms of like building out that eight figure portfolio. So you talk to us a little bit about the phases of actually building your financial portfolio? And at what point were you like, okay, I can cut
the corporate tie, I don't need to have a paycheck coming in, were you already like financially solvent and fully paying your bills with your investments every month or did you have to make that leap before it was all coming together?
Tamar Hermes (24:02)
Yeah, okay, before I answer that, I just want to say one thing on the trust piece, because I think it's such a great moment for me. I interviewed Anne Malam, who exited Solid Core for $100 million, and on my podcast, Women Growing Wealth, and one of the things she said really stuck with me. And she says this a lot, and I feel like it's something that was missing for me in trust. And so I want to say it to the audience, to the listeners, that maybe they could try it on, because
For me, when I think about it, it makes a big difference for me in terms of what I believe I'm capable of. Anne has built, she exited Solid Core for $100 million. She also built Back on My Feet, which is a nonprofit, And she said to me, you know what, Tamar? I always knew that I was destined for greatness. And I just wish more of us would realize that we are these
beautiful beings and that we're all destined for greatness. I just wish my parents would have said that to me. I wish more people would say it to themselves because it just made a huge impact for me thinking of that. Just that idea. my God, like I'm here, I'm destined for greatness. What does that look like for me? All of a sudden, a lot of the barriers fall away because, hey, I'm destined for greatness. What does that look like?
What do I want that to look like? And it's almost like you get the what and then the how can follow along. So I wanted to share that.
Emma Lloyd (25:17)
Hmm.
I love that.
And you have to have that mindset. I was just talking to another guest on this podcast, Ellen Castor Porter, about how she also lives in this mindset of like, it's all going to work out or another guest, Lacey Seitz, everything always works out perfectly for me, or I'm destined for greatness. Like you hear so many of the people who are going after their dreams and creating the success that we all see and we all in theory want, they have adopted this mentality of like, okay,
What if I trusted everything was going to go my way? What if I acted from that place rather than from the inverse of that? And I think that can feel really uncomfortable for so many of us to live into. And I think it is so important to, as you've discussed, expand that capacity and look at that mindset and figure out how do we build that self-trust? Because no, it's not going to be a linear path. It's not going to come without challenge. But
you can keep learning, can keep iterating, can keep taking the feedback I talk often about, you know, we're in a co-creative dance of the universe. We take an action step, the universe gives us feedback on it, whether that's in data in terms of, okay, how did that investment do, or how does it feel to be in this new job, or what am I learning, and what am I more curious about? We get that, and then...
We have new information to take another step. And so we're in this co-creative dance. Sometimes it's a step backwards. Sometimes we have to sidestep, right? But if we believe everything's gonna work out, right? And I'm destined for greatness. We can stay in the dance rather than just, you know, whatever, folding, taking off our shoes and going and sitting back down on the bench.
Tamar Hermes (26:55)
100%, And then as far as your question about how did I build the portfolio and get to where I am, I would say that what really helped me was just staying the course. Now, when I had left my entertainment position and bought my duplex and was lowering my overhead and lowering my cost of living was also a time around where I met my husband.
So my husband and I were both, we've been married now almost 25 years, and we're both very compatible financially. That's just one of our places where we're super harmonious. So we were both really good about not needing that much in terms of spending. He was also in a career transition. So at one point, neither of us had any income for seven months. But what we did was we made sure our overhead was low.
We made sure that we weren't over exceeding our expenses and we lived within a budget during that time. And you talked about that. You talked about, hey, if it's really important to you to make a move, if you're really unhappy and maybe you're in a situation where it's just toxic environment and you're just thinking, my gosh, I can't stand this one more day, really set your sights on, okay, what can I do? Can I move out of this expensive rental that I'm living in?
and live in a different area for a while. can I go out to eat less? And there are just certain things that we can make choices about. And so I think that all of those things really helped. And then, as we started to make money, I was good at balancing things. So I would invest and I would save money and I would spend money that I wanted to spend.
One of the things that I talk a lot about in my work is the enough number. And the enough number is the number that you need to be financially free. And that number can look a myriad of ways, but really in a very simple math equation, if you have a million dollars in the bank and you're making 10%, that's $100,000 a year. In very simple terms, of course, there's inflation you have to consider, there's taxes, there's other things, but on a very simple mathematical equation,
Most people can wrap their head around, a million dollars, 100,000 a year, that's 10,000 a month cycling in, I'm not using all of the principal. So that's a way where you can start to see how your money can start working for you. So if you have a certain amount of money in the bank, you can see how much that money can work for you. And I think that financial advisors often make it more complex.
than it needs to be and they use equations that are traditional equations from years ago saying, okay, at 4%, which doesn't even offset inflation, you can retire in 30 years or something,
we need to gain access to certain ideas and opportunities and ways in which we can increase our returns and lower our taxes and make that work for us so that we can make more. So that's all part of, the equation of getting to, an eight-figure portfolio and being able to maximize all of the strategies and all of the wealth building tools.
Emma Lloyd (29:59)
Yeah, and so to get to this enough number, like let's say there's a, I don't know, 36 year old product manager at Google listening who's making 350K a year married with one kid. Like what are her first steps? What are the numbers she needs to calculate to be able to figure out, okay, like what is my enough number and how am I tracking to that? And
she doesn't have enough in principle to then be able to get to that enough number, what are the strategies then you recommend from there?
Tamar Hermes (30:27)
Right, well the first thing you wanna look at is where are you at in terms of how on a level of one to 10, 10 being the most unhappy or unsatisfied at your 350K position, where are you on that scale? So if you're at a three, meaning that you're still relatively good with it, you just know that you wanna transition out in a year or two.
then you start looking at the numbers. the calculator at getyourenoughnumbernow.com, And it'll also actually show you if I'm earning 8 % interest instead of 4 % interest, how much faster you will get to your number. So you want to start there. So first we're going to gauge,
how emotionally physically my being, my everyday being, how unhappy am I, know, or unsatisfied am I. And based on that, you're gonna start utilizing strategies to make moves. So maybe if you're at a 10, then you might need to be much more aggressive about, how do I make a change that I feel better? Maybe it's even getting another corporate position for a while until you can.
figure out more of a design around what it looks like to be an entrepreneur or what your other vision is. But we always want to address how we are mentally first, right? you don't want to be in a situation where you're out of 10 and then you're like, I got to save every dime because I'm trying to get to this number and you're just going to be miserable. And so we really want to start there.
And then, you're at a point where you are lower on the scale, then you can start to look at, okay, where are my numbers and what does it look like? I say there are six phases emotionally to enough. So we have the struggle, which I'm sure every woman can relate to. I find myself still sometimes in struggle. if I'm not having a hard time, then I'm not doing it right, or it's not valuable.
So struggle to effort, to comfort, to ease, to security, and then to enough. So we're moving through these different phases and different layers to get to that enough number emotionally while we're tactfully at it.
Emma Lloyd (32:36)
Mm-hmm. OK, got it. So if a woman is at a 10, she might need to, I call it, getting a bridge job. Like, all right, well, you have to get out of where you are. You have to put on your oxygen mask. maybe you jump ship, and you're willing to do another corporate job. But maybe that's one that's not killing your soul, and it brings it to a five or to a three, right?
Tamar Hermes (32:54)
Totally,
right? That's the most important because you have to come home at night and you've got a kid in this scenario and you've got a partner and you wanna be able to enjoy your life and if you're at a 10, then you're really depleted by the time you come home, plus not to mention what's happening to you during the day. So you definitely wanna address that first. what I wanna say also about that 10 is that there is this feeling with
corporate jobs it feels like you're looking to someone else to say, yes, you, we'll pay you, let's negotiate, is to remember your capacity inside of that and the value that you bring so that you know that there is a better opportunity for you somewhere
We have to get ourselves into a space where we realize our value, our capacity, and really utilize all of our connections to create new opportunities. I just wanted to say that.
Emma Lloyd (33:41)
And so, OK, let's imagine this person is a five on the scale from one to 10. And so they're like, yeah, I can keep doing this. But I don't want to. This other thing is calling to me. But I know if I pursue that vision of what I want, my earning is going to be cut by whatever, 2 thirds in year one.
And I'm not yet at my enough number. Do you advise women to wait until they're at their enough number before then pursuing that calling and really lay that security and that financial foundation first? Or do you look at, OK, you have enough in a rainy day fund. Even if it's not your enough number, you can build towards that if you take on a little bit more risk. Can you talk us through that? Because I think so many women listening are
you know, not wanting to jeopardize their whole financial future, but also not wanting to override that inner voice anymore. But they're not there at the number where they can just be financially free and retire and know everything is taken care of. That's a really fortunate position to be in, but they also don't want to wait until they're 50 for that to be their reality.
Tamar Hermes (34:47)
I would say 99 % that I would not wait to reach your enough number if you're not there yet. Because it could take you five years, 10 years, and you're working in a situation where you know your soul is calling you to do something else. And I've done it several times in my careers.
I was an executive in entertainment and I also was agent for very successful photographers early on when I was like 24, when I first graduated from college. And I was making also like a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, but I knew I didn't wanna do that. I wanted to be on the creative side. And so I took a cut I was making maybe $40,000 a year for...
maybe like a year or two, and then I jump back up. So I think that absolutely, you have to bet on yourself, and that's more important than you hitting your enough number, because the truth is that your enough number will come. I mean, you can be from 40 and then get to a million. You can go anywhere from where you're aligned. So without a doubt, I think that you need to start to create a plan.
Emma Lloyd (35:42)
Mm-hmm.
Tamar Hermes (35:45)
And if you have a partner, look at where your partner's at. A lot of times there can be partners where they'll say, you don't have to work, I got this. My husband was like that, but I always like, no, I gotta work, you I wanna work. And I wanted to, and I wanted to be in the world, and I wanted to participate in that way. That was what I wanted while I was raising my kids. That was my passion. However, if you are in a state where you need to transition,
because that's what's in your heart, then have a conversation with your partner and see how about you picking up the bulk of the load financially for a little while, while I work on this. And I think in a good partnership, I mean, I don't wanna judge, because every partnership's different, but I would say to me, being married 25 years, a healthy partnership is one where you're nurturing one another.
in your heart, in your soul, in your life. And if someone is really like, my God, I have this vision, I have this feeling that I really wanna do something, that if your partner's making great money, why not support that?
Emma Lloyd (36:42)
Totally. And I think that receivership can be really hard for a lot of high achieving women, right? We're like conditioned to like, no, you go lean in, do it the same way as the men, always be earning up into the right, like don't depend on anyone. We have so much of that conditioning. And so it can feel so stretchy, even if we are coupled with someone who has the ability to take on more of that.
Tamar Hermes (36:47)
very hard.
Emma Lloyd (37:07)
burden for a little while, you know, or to give ourselves sometimes to say like, I need a sabbatical, I need to take a career pause, I need to take nine or 12 months off. I mean, that was very much a part of my story. And that was so important. But also saying, just because I'm doing this now doesn't mean I'm never gonna work again. It doesn't mean that I'm deciding to just like be a stay at home wife or mom. It means that I am recalibrating, I am shifting, I am pivoting.
I moving into greater alignment. And I love what you're talking about too is when you're in that alignment, yeah, it might not happen overnight, but your potential, especially as an entrepreneur, to increase your earning potential and your wealth many times over versus what you get at like a 5 % or a 10 % bump climbing the corporate ladder. it may take you a few years, but if you knew that in three years time
you would have replaced your corporate salary doing something you love or making even more money. If you knew that was a guarantee, would you do it? And if so, then how can you make this short-term trade-offs? How can you receive? How can you allow yourself to be willing to take on that risk for a period of time, not forever, right? And so I think that that's such an important question to ask ourself and to sit in because
Yeah, it takes a while to figure out the fundamentals or the basics of any business or get your portfolio really cranking for you. But once you do, the earning potential is uncapped, where it is capped in corporate very often, right?
Tamar Hermes (38:37)
100%. And the other thing about corporate positions is that when you are a W-2 employee, your income gets directly given to the government. Everybody's just declaring it. And so you really don't have a lot of options as far as tax deductions. Now, I work with my group and we have strategies that we work with with W-2 employees as well, because it's just a reality of life that
you know, sometimes some people love their positions. there's nothing wrong with, W-2 employees are extremely valuable, and it's great. And so, we need strategy to offset that. But if your heart is in entrepreneurship, and even if you're making half a million dollars a year, especially if you're in California, you only get half of that.
So, I mean, we're really only trying to replace, a couple hundred thousand to get very close to where you were.
Emma Lloyd (39:31)
Yeah, yeah. And I also think something I noticed personally and I see with a lot of people is that if we're really grinding it out, and I love what you said, we're not anti-corporate here. There are lot of corporate careers which are amazing and people are super happy and fulfilled, but talking about the people who do want to pivot. But I think oftentimes when people are unhappy but trapped by the golden handcuffs, they're actually unconsciously spending a lot of money.
as an escapism and as a coping mechanism that they wouldn't otherwise need to spend if they were happy and aligned. It's like, I need that designer bag or I need this vacation because I'm so burnt out or we get on Instagram and some influencers selling us something we don't need and we impulsively spend and we have that bit of shopaholic or unconscious spending. And very often when we stop,
doing and forcing ourselves into something that we're miserable doing and we're building towards something we actually want, those things that felt shiny and tempting to spend money on, it's like, no, no, no, no, I'm building towards this. I know what I want. I know what my values are. And so I'm able to spend more consciously and intentionally. And I don't need as much, you know, for me to be able to have designed a career where I love the work I do. And also, I mean, not currently at the...
this is state of pregnancy that I'm at, but being able to be like, I can go to a 10 a.m. yoga class on a Tuesday. I have the freedom, I have the choice. I don't actually need to spend money reactively on other things because I'm living a life that I'm designing. And so I just wanted to also note that because it can be, it doesn't always have to feel so sacrificial. Like pulling back on our expenses has to feel like we're cutting the things that we really enjoy. Oftentimes when we stop trying to escape.
our lives that pulls back naturally. Is that something you found to be true as well?
Tamar Hermes (41:17)
100%, I'm not the kind of person, and nor have I ever been, where I needed 80 Louis Vuitton bags. I can have one or two, and I really didn't get any until I was later in life. I never even thought of spending money on that, even though fashion bags are actually decent investments. But aside, I still don't recommend that you spend your whole paycheck on them,
But I definitely have seen clients over time where they will spend a lot. And it's certainly a good place to check in is, OK, what is this desire to have these things? I know when I have spent more, it has been when I felt more of a insecurity in myself and a grounding in myself where I wanted to fill and nurture myself with things outside
that pacified me. And so I certainly think that it's a place where if you feel like you are inclined to overspend you're dreaming all day while you're at work of the new red Louis Vuitton bag or Gucci or whatever it is, you can ask yourself, okay, do I really want that? Or is it just that I'm distracting myself because I don't want to think about the things that are harder, that are harder choices?
Emma Lloyd (42:27)
Totally. Or if it's between that red Louis Vuitton bag or doing the thing I actually want to be doing or working 50 % less or whatever it is, would you still choose that? And if so, OK, that might really be a desire and a value. And there's no shame on that. I often talk to clients, there's nothing wrong with valuing beauty and things that light up your soul. And sometimes it's like, my gosh,
I'm affected so much by spaces. I love my home. I love investing like maker made pieces and they're not cheap. I'm not buying Ikea here, right? And that's authentically aligned with what lights me up. There's nothing wrong with that. And I would consciously choose that. But when I'm trying to like keep up with some trend and actually doing that is causing me to not be putting away money to be growing the principle to be getting closer to my enough number. It's just making me
keep up with the Joneses and stay on the treadmill or the hamster wheel or whatever you want to call it, that's actually not something I consciously want. That's not taking me closer to where I want to go. So I just also wanted to say that because there's nothing wrong with wanting to live a beautiful life that feels really fulfilling and that does take money. But I think we just owe it to ourselves to be really intentional about is it really this or is this the other thing I want more? But I'm actually spending on the thing I don't really want.
because I'm telling myself that's impossible or too far away.
Tamar Hermes (43:50)
Right. That's
interesting. It reminds me of a client that was telling me recently how inspired she was by me because of the net worth that I created. And even though she has a multi-seven figure company, she said, but now I'm seeing that I'm looking at you and the assets you have and what you've built that I spend so much money going on vacations and buying clothes and doing all these things. Now I'm really valuing the idea of
of realizing that if I had spent maybe 50,000 less in a year and put it away and invested it, that it would have grown. And so it's also another thing to think about when you're thinking about how many things you're purchasing in your lifestyle versus what does it look like to put some money away and invest that money and let it grow for you and what that might feel like in five years.
And so that's an interesting question to ask yourself. I know even for my husband and I, when we go on vacation, if we're flying really far, we certainly will fly business class. But if we're not flying very far, we'll just fly coach. We don't need to fly on the most expensive seat.
And so there are certain places where we can still have what we want, but not necessarily be spending as much, but still being able to enjoy things.
Emma Lloyd (45:10)
100%, I mean, I had that realization on my honeymoon. We were staying at the most ultra luxury hotels in Italy And then you're paying for everything on top of that where you're getting a basic sandwich that's like $55, And I had this experience and it didn't fill me up. was like one.
I'm not even interacting with the culture of Italy here. This is a super luxury result where they're just catering to me and calling me ma'am and being deferential. And I'm like, I don't like this. this doesn't feel good. I feel like I'm being taken advantage of for how much I'm spending on everything, which, you know, was making me not enjoy it as much. And then I looked back after I had the most amazing weekend away that I gave myself, like one of the best trips I ever took.
was right before we got married. went to a little town, we were living in London at the time, I went to a little town in France, I rented a room at an Airbnb with a couple who lives there by myself to write my wedding vows and they invited me to dinner with them and their friends, because I was traveling alone and made pasta and a basic tomato salad and the host and I started following each other on Instagram. She reached out to me recently, I had this very,
inexpensive, staying in a couple spare room trip. And that was one of the best trips of my life. And so those were also so close to one another, right? Before I got married and right after, and to be like, I received so much more joy out of the more inexpensive one than I did from the ultra luxury. That was really helpful for me to be like, I don't actually really value that, right? So I think that that's part of the conversation that we get to ask ourselves and sit with. How did that feel after?
Tamar Hermes (46:42)
Yeah.
Emma Lloyd (46:47)
Did I spend that money joyfully? Did that fill me up? Did I feel so lit up by it? Or did I kind of feel a little icky or like, ooh, I kind of regret that. That's such good feedback.
Tamar Hermes (46:58)
100%. you can start to look at the things that you value. And that's one of the things we look at with the enough number. That's one of the things I love about looking at it is that a lot of times what I hear is, oh,
It was less than what I thought I needed and wanted. And it's kind of a relief to look at it because it always feels like how much is enough always feels so elusive. especially when we're budgeting in all of these things that we feel like we need, we can never catch up. We're always on the hamster wheel of getting more and more and more. And then we feel trapped because we're in a position maybe where we want to be doing something different, but we don't feel like we can.
still supply the more and more more feeling. then once we start doing calculations, we can start seeing, oh, I don't really even need that. I don't really care about that that much. And then it opens up the floodgates.
Emma Lloyd (47:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. I'm curious, know, something that's coming up in a lot of coaching conversations right now. There's a lot of fear, especially I work with a lot of clients in tech and VC and there's a lot of layoffs happening. AI is shifting things. it feels like the ground beneath our feet is moving. And so oftentimes I'm talking with clients when they're feeling like, I don't even know that I am secure because I don't even know if I'm going to have a job in a couple of years time. And the truth is like, none of us really know.
how this is gonna play out in the future. And we are going through an unprecedented tidal wave of change with this new technology being adopted and it can throw us into scarcity. It can throw us into survival mode and understandably so. And especially as someone who, you your parents were rightfully in survival and then trying to work their way out of that. like, can you talk us through how do we still...
process this in real time? How do we maintain a sense of safety and financial empowerment so we're not just running around in fear or we're not just putting our heads under the pillows? Like when we think about AI and how it's likely to affect financial safety for all of us and especially women, how should we change how we're thinking about or planning for our money with that context?
Tamar Hermes (49:01)
That's a great question. The first thing I would do is get your enough number. Getyourenoughnumbernow.com. I would get that and I would start to look at what is it that you really need and want and is required for you to actually live the life that you want. And I would actually be more of a steward of the finances that are coming in right now.
be a little bit more conservative, and you wouldn't be the first one. A lot of people are right now, you know, kind of peeling back, making sure that they have their nest egg in order. And the truth is that, you know, we're always in a vulnerable time now, obviously, is even more. And I say we're always in a vulnerable time because the truth is that we don't know for sure, you know, what tomorrow's gonna bring. I mean, we're fairly certain in a way.
But there is a sense of not knowing, and we can look at that as a fear, or we can look at it as a wonderment and as a curiosity. And so I would say there's no life in going to your position every day and thinking, wow, I could be replaced. One of the things I would do certainly, like with AI, I truly believe that AI is really an enhancer for whatever you are.
the employees that are using AI or create teams that use AI and build their agents and build capacity can really enhance a company quite a bit. And if it turns out that you are in a situation where you do experience a layoff, look at it as an opportunity. If you have your numbers set and you have a little bit of time, go ahead and...
Invite that as an opportunity, Because think about the places that we grow the most. They're always in the places where we were most uncertain, like a breakup, where like, oh my God, my life is over. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And then all of sudden you meet the true love of your life, right? Or you lose money and then all of a sudden you have the best opportunity. Or maybe you lose a position that you think, oh my God, I needed this. This is crazy. And then all of a sudden you invent a cure for cancer.
You know, I mean, there's all kinds of things that there's miracles always, and sometimes the universe pulls us. So allow yourself to dance a little without letting that feeling of fear take over. Because let's face it, mean, our lives are not designed ultimately to be in fear, right? If we're going to live a satisfying conscious life. So.
we really need to check in with ourselves and put in guardrails, put in guardrails. Like look at your numbers and see where you're at, but I wouldn't let yourself get to a point where you're just ridden with fear because the truth is you don't really know what's gonna happen. And I would just keep looking at opportunity and step by step and I think it's okay to pair back a little bit on the finances.
Emma Lloyd (51:49)
Yeah, I love what you're talking about of like looking at it with wonder or curiosity. How could it be happening for you, not to you? And you know, a lot of clients actually do come to me after they've been made redundant, but my gosh, they got a six month or nine month or whatever 12 month severance package now where they never would have otherwise been willing to pick their heads up and think about doing something new. It's like, well, if I have my bills paid for the next nine months, like maybe I should use this opportunity. Like maybe I should leverage this.
But in order to still be able to do that, in order to be in wonderment it realign you, you also have to have at least a rainy day fund or enough financial security that you're like, okay, I can pay my mortgage for the next X amount of time, whether you're receiving a redundancy package or not. in this time, how do you advise your clients on
how they should approach a rainy day fund. How much cash should we hold on hand in a job market that can be a little bit uncertain versus when are we over saving and keeping everything in cash versus investing it to allow ourselves to really build more wealth?
Tamar Hermes (52:55)
Right, well, I think that if you are saving six months, then chances are you're in a decent position. other thing I'm going to say is I say six months, but I'll also say it could be 12 months. I I have clients that keep hundreds of thousands of dollars in their bank account. And a lot of times, I will question that and say, we could be investing some of that, right? And sometimes they're just not comfortable.
they want more cash in there. So I would say also, you know, as I say, six to 12 months, I would say, you know, listen to yourself and see how you feel. The other thing is, I always talk about having different antennas to reach money. Like at any point, I can pull from my whole life insurance policy, I have a cash value, I use it as my own bank, I have a HELOC, I have different savings accounts that have certain amount of money that I can take from. So you want to
Create vehicles to make your money work for you so that you don't have it's just this six months and then it runs out. Start creating certain types of vehicles where you have options to pull from.
Emma Lloyd (53:56)
Yeah, I mean, I think the traditional advice, at least that I grew up understanding in terms of the best way to like be financially safe and secure and build wealth was like, max my 401k and buy the index. you know, that is advice I think a lot of us here, do you think that that's good advice? Because I hear you talking about different vehicles and different, you know, types of investment, alternatives, real estate, whatever. How do we think about...
Tamar Hermes (54:15)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Lloyd (54:20)
what we should act, what that distribution should actually look like, or what are the women in your program, women growing wealth doing differently than the default.
Tamar Hermes (54:28)
Well, I would say they just have more access to opportunities. So we have tax strategies. We have different kinds of investments. We're doing more analysis so they can see their path to their enough number and their blueprint to freedom, I call it. So they have more access in terms of understanding what directions they can go. They're also setting up whole life.
insurance policies, they're setting up HELOCs on their home, they're doing different things like that, which is another way to go. The thing about the 401k and maxing it out, I do think the 401k is a great option in terms of maxing it out, especially if the company matches because you make extra money. That said, with a 401k, it is a tax-deferred vehicle. So at a certain point,
Uncle Sam will come knocking. So again, that's why tax strategies come into play And then you said the 401k and the index funds, it's interesting because I was so gung-ho on real estate and wrote a book about it.
And I ended up also investing with partners, a lot of partners on different vehicles. And what I found was that overall, I think that had I kept more money in index funds, I probably would have been better off, even though I still did well. Index funds, I think, are tried and true. And I think the fact that I kind of snubbed my nose a little at the stock market while I was really
really bold, and I'm still in really bold on real estate, but I I'm moving more and more into the stock market and I'm enjoying it. this is not stock advice. but if you want to do it, you can look into it, which is that I personally like to,
take certain index funds and then also use certain individual stocks to kind of boost my returns. So I usually, you I have a certain amount of my portfolio that is individual stocks and I really like those because overall, those companies do really well and they earn better. I'm not a huge fan of bonds. I just don't really, I don't really love bonds at all. I just feel like they move really slow and I feel like if you don't put every dime in the stock market,
You won't need that money when it fluctuates. I have money that goes down like money and Bitcoin went down a little bit, but it doesn't affect me because I'm not, I'm not like, my God, I need that money. So you have to be able to ride the waves again. One of our themes in this show has been time, know, trust time and let time do its work.
Emma Lloyd (56:57)
Yeah, yeah, so, and correct me if this isn't true, but what I'm kind of taking away from what we've talked about in terms of some financial guidance, it's like, okay, make sure you have six months or if it feels even safer for you not to go into scarcity and survival mode, have 12 months then in cash in a rainy day fund so that you know that you're safe. And then from there, look at like, how can you actually decrease your expenses without...
compromising your values at least for a short period of time. It's not saying forever, but can you move into an apartment that doesn't cost as much for a couple years while you make a pivot or while you rebuild? Can you just be more intentional about how you're spending? And then really looking at, okay, so what do I want to be doing? How can I actually shift into the thing that is calling to me and that could allow me to hopefully.
create more wealth over time? And how am I also figuring out what is my enough number, calculating that, we'll put it in the show notes, and figuring out the path to get there and recognizing that there can be advantageous tech strategies, especially if you take a different entrepreneurial path or are just more conscious of how to use those different vehicles to also help you while not just holding everything in cash, but knowing how much you need to have in cash.
and then actually investing it, not just sitting on it and letting inflation reduce that amount every year. And if we do that, we're in a pretty good position. Does that feel true?
Tamar Hermes (58:25)
100%.
yeah, absolutely. And you know, the bottom line is that none of us have a crystal ball. None of us know exactly like, do you need six months? Do you need 12 months? I mean, if six months comes and you're not in a great situation, then you go and you move in with your cousin for a month. It's not like, we figure it out. We are resilient. And that's again, like...
I'm destined for something great. I'm destined for greatness. I believe in myself. I know things are gonna work out. Like even when it's dark, believe in the light. And the thing that I think is so pivotal, Emma, that you talk about is the fact that we need to make choices. And at a certain point, if you are like,
I'm gonna live in my big house, I'm gonna go on my vacations and spend $2,500 a night, because I love it and I need to do it for three weeks a year. I'm gonna send my kids to private school, even though the public school's good. All these choices are going to eat away at the dollars. And these are choices, and you have to just know that if you make those choices, you may need to stay in the position that you're in longer, because you're not at a point yet where
The other side outweighs it, right? Remember, I sick and tired of being sick and tired. Like that was my, freedom was my North Star. And your North Star is whatever it is, but whatever it is, you gotta be true to it and you gotta honor it. And you have to be able to work toward it that means that you might need to make some choices, right? Because we can't always do everything at once
Emma Lloyd (59:55)
and I love that you just named that and I think it's like such a good place to wrap up there too. But it's like, it is not on anyone else to judge how anyone spends their money and for the people that are choosing to go to whatever three weeks at $2,500 a night. If you're feeling good in your body and in your life and that's lighting you up and you're aligned, amazing. I love that for you. And if you're not, recognize that you have choice. Recognize that you are an empowered individual who can
make decisions, who can make trade-offs, who can make pivots, who can make investments, right? And when we do that and when we operate from that place and with that mindset of, you know, I'm destined for greatness, it's all going to work out, especially if I back that with action and I show that where I spend my money is aligned with my values and all of that, like, it does work out, right? And I think that I always want to return women to their empowerment. mean, ultimately, that is what...
my business and this podcast is all about. So thank you for sharing all of this wisdom. And I'm gonna be thinking about some of what you've talked about of having a mindset of wonder, even when things go wrong, quote unquote, and being able to really just kind of flow and stay with it and stay in it and over enough time if we are acting like I'm destined for greatness and we're backing that up with aligned actions.
I truly believe that that is our future. So I've loved this conversation so much. If this is resonating with people, where can they learn more about your work or how can they actually work with you?
Tamar Hermes (1:01:22)
Yes, wonderful. Well, they can go to get their enough number at getyourenoughnumbernow.com. And you can certainly visit me at my website, womengrowingwealth.com. And you can email Tamar at womengrowingwealth.com. And I'd be happy to greet you and say hello.
Emma Lloyd (1:01:40)
we'll put it all in the show notes. Thank you, Tamara. It's been so lovely to spend this hour with you.
Tamar Hermes (1:01:44)
Thank you so much.
